DD is always put with disruptive children...AIBU to ask her to move?

[peacockfeather11]

Every year this happens and I always try and say nothing because I don't want to be that mother that comes in to school complaining. But this year I am furious! My DD has been put on a table with the most disruptive and she's in tears and I can truly understand. It's too much too ask of her and she's so sensitive she never wants to let the teacher down which I feel is manipulated.

Do I ask the teacher to move her or AIBU?

@LolaSmiles

I don’t know the answer to this but do know that putting the responsibility onto biddable girls isn’t the solution is it? You're right. Whatever steps are taken, expecting quiet girls (because it is normally girls) to put up with it isn't right. It's just another drip drip drip of telling girls that they should be nice and put up with other people making them feel uncomfortable, put up with people being rude or disruptive because to speak out isn't nice.

There needs to be firm behaviour management from the teacher (ideally backed by senior leadership) to send a message that disruption is not acceptable. Where there's SEN needs then there should be a discussion about strategies to support the disruptive child in class or the behaviour policy has to be followed with the school's SEN base stepping up to intervene and advise staff.

What's for certain is expecting the same few children to go lesson to lesson carrying the burden of other students' bad behaviour isn't on.

And if all this is happening already?

And if all this is happening already?
Then senior staff, the SENCo and parents need to be having more conversations about what happens next because the current situation is failing both the disruptive child and others in the class.

In the absence of leadership stepping in then I'd be putting as much support in as i can for any SEN (where there is SEN, because not all disruptive students have SEN) and then following the behaviour policy to the letter. As a class teacher I can do my job to the best of my ability, but doing my job to the best of my ability does not mean allowing a minority of students to prevent the other 27-30 students learning.

I should add, if my school behaviour policy was so rubbish that I was expected to fail the children in my class so that SLT didn't have to deal with disruptive students then I'd be looking for a new school as soon as possible.

"Some honesty that yeah it’s shit and their needs are being sacrificed to support these kids and that the education system needs to change would be helpful."

Teachers have been pretty much constantly telling anyone who would listen that education is grossly, dangerously underfunded.

I'd love parents to get really galvanised into action about that - marches, protests, petitions. We need smaller classes, more support staff, interventions and special school places for those that need it.

In our area, we have children who are desperate for special school places, all approved and agreed, on waiting lists for years.

The wait to see CAMHS, if you meet their very high threshold, is about eight months. One of my primary aged pupils is self harming but doesn't meet the threshold.

Vote for the party most likely to address this next time there's an election at least.

The wait to see CAMHS, if you meet their very high threshold, is about eight months. One of my primary aged pupils is self harming but doesn't meet the threshold
I had a similar situation with a secondary student.

Yet for some reason many parents routinely vote for a party that openly defund education and services for children.

We did a CAMHS referral for an extremely vulnerable kid 2 Weeks ago and they were seen within a week. So the system does work.

Also; most inner city state schools have more than 2 disruptive kids per class. Realistically, in a class of 25 in my school, I would say on average 18 were pretty disruptive. We’ve even got a PRU on sight, in a different building, so those with the most behavioural needs have their lessons there.

"We did a CAMHS referral for an extremely vulnerable kid 2 Weeks ago and they were seen within a week. So the system does work."

I'm glad it's working where you are, but it's not everywhere. A child who attempted suicide waited months. His parents were told to phone them from A&E next time he attempted it as it would bump
him up the queue.

I'm glad it's not like that everywhere.

@rawlikesushi

That’s just appalling. Should be criminal.

I have a disruptive child i would hit the roof if I found out school was using another child to try and manage mine. It's not fair on either child.

Your priority as a parent is your dd not the other kids. If she’s being reduced to tears I would be doing everything in my power to change that situation.

We did a CAMHS referral for an extremely vulnerable kid 2 Weeks ago and they were seen within a week. So the system does work.
Glad it does where you are because in my region it is nowhere close to that.

Also; most inner city state schools have more than 2 disruptive kids per class. Realistically, in a class of 25 in my school, I would say on average 18 were pretty disruptive. We’ve even got a PRU on sight, in a different building, so those with the most behavioural needs have their lessons there.
So what are SLT doing? Genuine question, if the vast majority of every class are disruptive then SLT have something very wrong on a strategic level.
I worked in a school like that. We also had a unit on site to avoid sending students to PRUs or excluding them. Those units can work well, if used properly, but a school where the vast majority of students are disruptive every lesson plus the worst offenders are bumped to a unit where they usually don't have a qualified teacher, let alone subject specialists, is a fairly shocking provision. Ofsted rightly slated our SLT and most of them left. Going through Special Measures with new leadership saw things improve.

rawlikesushi - so glad you are not my child's teacher!

"Should be criminal."

I agree. And it's heartbreaking. And that's why threads like this get to me. Because some of these children, little children, are coping with disability and nightmarish home lives and such awful, awful experiences. And then you come on here and see them described as feral, weirdos, little shits. People say, with absolute conviction, that they should be dumped in a PRU for ten years.

We have a real issue, it seems, with identity in mainstream education. Everyone has to be the same, meshed into one homogenous, purposefully ordinary but fretful, incoherent group. Otherwise the kid is not treated "fairly" and the society is not "accepting". Hence the divide becomes greater. Private schools and the wealthy who do their own thing and continue to thrive.

I've been into a behavioural needs school in the 'Northern hemisphere' (surprise, surprise). I can say that the kids were in a pleasant calm, unpressured environment - a modern building with loads of natural light and natural elements around them. Their environment fully supported their needs and the teaching focussed on preparing them for life, (hopefully) supporting themselves in the real world, in a way they could understand and which was appropriate. Per class there was one teacher, fully qualified, for a class of children. With, what I perceived to be, support floating around when needed. ...Rather than every class in every mainstream school being disrupted and a generation of ill contented people who wanted to excel but did not achieve what they were absolutely capable of (both neurotypical AND SEN!!).

Everyone has a place in society. But can we get rid of this notion of people being "lesser than" which I am certain comes from the culturally ingrained mentality of class deference and that constant scrabbling over eachother that 99% of the population are expected, and brainwashed to do (and with as much funding). No one on this thread, I am sure, believes that SEN children should be treated as such.

But what is the point of diagnoses if it means blameless, naive young children will be used to look after kids with behavioural issues in school? What kind of a country do we live in where there is actually no real automatic support infrastructure to advocate and protect all children from barriers to their learning? Surely PRU should be scrapped ("Pupil Referral Unit" sounds like some young offenders institute!) and a new educational system for children with extra needs would socialise them unbregrudgingly into society without producing this sense of shame from the very start.

"rawlikesushi - so glad you are not my child's teacher!"

If you're an arsehole parent with a whiny kid then me too.

But actually in rl I seem to be quite well regarded, so that'll do for me.

rawlikesushi - You sound like an arsehole teacher who I wouldn't anywhere near my child.

@LolaSmiles

We’ve been in special measures for 5 years... so we’ve become a multi academy trust, with a temp head in for 2 years... are issues are very unique so the super head has absolutely no idea what to do.
As we aren’t full we end up with every excluded child in nearby schools joining us, if we try and do a ‘managed transfer’ with another local school, our child will be sent back to us the next day. We have a huge amount of Romany Gypsy children who can’t speak any English and haven’t been in schooling before, it took a month to get some of these girls sitting on chairs and not kneeling in the corner of the room, who come and go monthly.

We have 8 members of SLT, all white men in a school with 85% BAME students.

Surely PRU should be scrapped ("Pupil Referral Unit" sounds like some young offenders institute!) and a new educational system for children with extra needs would socialise them unbregrudgingly into society without producing this sense of shame from the very start.
The name might sound very institution like, but that's why a lot of people speak about Alternate Provision when discussing PRUs.
Many of them offer the sort of education you outline.
I've worked with some PRUs and they tend to have a smaller core curriculum but more time to spend getting to know the students, more time out the classroom, partnership work with local charities and vocational training options. Some do a lot of outdoor education as well as having specialists to work with students on their individual needs.
There's a lot from PRUs and AP that mainstream could learn from, but then there's also a lot of positives from AP that wouldn't transfer into mainstream because it's such a different context.

Why an arsehole? Because she has patience for those who can't easily behave within the norms of the classroom?

@earthyfire

rawlikesushi - You sound like an arsehole teacher who I wouldn't anywhere near my child.

Is it the fact that I advocate so strongly for the SEN children in my care that offends you?

worst offenders are bumped to a unit where they usually don't have a qualified teacher, let alone subject specialists, is a fairly shocking provision.

For core subjects; us specialist teachers go to the PRU and teach the students there. Then it’s run by 2 non teachers focussing on life skills and more hands on vocational Skills

@rawlikesushi

You don’t sound like an asshole at all, you sound caring and inclusive.

Thank you

OverTheRainbow88
I thought from what you said it would be a leadership issue. It usually is.

I'd put money that many of the suited white men have made their name doing quick fix turnarounds, throwing money and resources at Year 11 to improve grades for a year or two, get the Ofsted grade and then move on. They'll probably be patting themselves on the back for how great they are.

Then they get to a school that has challenges that don't fit their approach and find themselves out of their depth quite quickly.

[quote OverTheRainbow88]@rawlikesushi

You don’t sound like an asshole at all, you sound caring and inclusive.[/quote]
Definitely!