DD is always put with disruptive children...AIBU to ask her to move?

[peacockfeather11]

Every year this happens and I always try and say nothing because I don't want to be that mother that comes in to school complaining. But this year I am furious! My DD has been put on a table with the most disruptive and she's in tears and I can truly understand. It's too much too ask of her and she's so sensitive she never wants to let the teacher down which I feel is manipulated.

Do I ask the teacher to move her or AIBU?

What is the quiet child sat next to the disruptive child learning?

Their education isn't important. Their needs aren't important. They can be hit, hurt or distracted and they just have to shut up and put up with it.

It's their responsibility to manage their partner.

It's their fault when they can't.

Seating arrangements need to be fair for all students.

Seating plans should be rotated throughout the day. Different positions for Reading, Maths, English etc.

"Seating plans should be rotated throughout the day. Different positions for Reading, Maths, English etc."

They often are but not this year.

"What is the quiet child sat next to the disruptive child learning?

Their education isn't important. Their needs aren't important. They can be hit, hurt or distracted and they just have to shut up and put up with it."

That is not my experience. That is a very negative view. PP have attested to what their child has gained, positively, from sitting next to a child with additional needs.

@MyShinyWhiteTeeth My DS has gained a friend by sitting next to the ‘naughty’ child. He’s also strengthened his resilience, patience and knowledge by supporting and explaining his learning to someone else. Of course mixed partnerships don’t always work, but please don’t talk like they never work. You’d be surprised (I constantly am by the children in my class!)

@rawlikesushi

"rawlikesushi - so glad you are not my child's teacher!"

If you're an arsehole parent with a whiny kid then me too.

But actually in rl I seem to be quite well regarded, so that'll do for me.

you have made pretty clear in this thread that's how you consider shy and well-meaning children being reduced to tears by the behaviour of naughty and unruly children, and their parents trying help them out.

it is absolutely shocking and you do sound awful. I bet in rl you are hiding it well, because it's totally unacceptable from a teacher.

Who do you think you are to dismiss the "whiny" kids , who might come from difficult homes, have traumas you have no idea about, have SEN, and your insistence to confuse "naughty" and "additional needs" is deeply offensive.

I agree that @rawlikesushi has made it clear how they consider shy and well-meaning children. With respect along with the rest of the class.
You’re welcome to teach my DC any time!

I have never read from a less inclusive "teacher", it's disgusting to behave and think like that frankly. I am glad you are nowhere near my kids schools.

I have never read from a less inclusive "teacher", it's disgusting to behave and think like that frankly. I am glad you are nowhere near my kids schools

Sounds like dds old yr 5 teacher . When she tried to ask a question about what they had been learning which she missed because she was prevented purposefully from seeing the board , he had a right go at her. Made bloody sure she never spoke up again

But as long as she was inclusive ....

"your insistence to confuse "naughty" and "additional needs" is deeply offensive."

Don't be ridiculous. They were terms (nice child, naughty child) used pretty early in the thread and I've ran with it. It's obvious from my posts that I don't think children with SEN are 'naughty'.

"I have never read from a less inclusive "teacher""

Eh? I think you've misunderstood something along the way.

Or are you talking about my lack of tolerance for arsehole parents? Because I find that those parents don't like me much and hooray for that.

"Sounds like dds old yr 5 teacher . When she tried to ask a question about what they had been learning which she missed because she was prevented purposefully from seeing the board , he had a right go at her. Made bloody sure she never spoke up again."

Nope. I've never done that.

"Sounds like dds old yr 5 teacher . When she tried to ask a question about what they had been learning which she missed because she was prevented purposefully from seeing the board , he had a right go at her. Made bloody sure she never spoke up again."

Although thinking about it, that does sound unlikely doesn't it?

Partner purposefully prevented her from seeing the board and shes the one told off?

Sometimes kids scapegoat the naughty kids in class, sometimes they tell their parents a load of crap about why they were told off at school that day.

If that's really what happened though, you're right to be cross. No child should be told off for something they haven't done. Sometimes teachers are thinking on the hoof though and haven't got time to drill into the detail. Not an excuse, but a reason. Easily sorted if you raise it surely? A tad dramatic to never again contribute to a class discussion.

"I am glad you are nowhere near my kids schools."

Maybe I am? How would you know?

I'd nod and smile at your spurious complaints and laugh at you when you'd gone.

The issue is that there's a balancing act to be done in the classroom.

It's wrong not to put in appropriate support for those who need it and it would be wrong to write off specific children just for having challenging behaviour or SEND needs, but equally there also comes a point where the education of the rest of the class has to be factored in.

It's wrong for the education of 28/30 students to be hindered and within that the education of the same 3 or 4 students to be hugely impacted because the teacher would rather pat themselves on the back for keeping a disruptive child in their class at almost any cost, short of violence.

Inclusion does not mean limiting the education of everyone.

"It's wrong for the education of 28/30 students to be hindered and within that the education of the same 3 or 4 students to be hugely impacted because the teacher would rather pat themselves on the back for keeping a disruptive child in their class at almost any cost, short of violence."

I agree it's a balancing act. I work hard to make sure every child is happy, supported and learning and it's not easy.

Where are we supposed to send these disruptive children again?

Well thats the thing witg kids they don't tell you straight away. Seeks you realise sen kids behaviour can he an indication of homelike etc but NT kids are just whiny and scapegoating the other kids

Why would she tell me if other trusted adults think thats the way to behave. Kids trust you then treat them like that they will believe they are the problem.

Like when they are told to stay away from their bullies etc and treated like an inconvenience and its allowed to continue becuase they ensure the kids just keep their mouths shut . Class is quiet, teacher got on with their marking why rock the boat by listening to a child with a problem completely not of her making

Sounds like you wouldn't believe her yet you will also say these kids have to sit somewhere yes they do. Next to my child then you don't believe anything happened?

Hows that work? They're disruptive enough to have a seating plan as behaviour management but not disruptive enough to acknowledge it might affect somebidy else.?

@rawlikesushi

I'm a teacher and, if you came to me asking for your child to be moved, unless they were being hurt, I'd do it but think you were an arse.

These children have to sit next to someone. IME teachers move the nice kid on every few weeks so that nobody is unduly burdened or has their learning impaired.

It is about exposing the challenging child to good behaviours, and is rarely, if ever, detrimental to the well-behaved child.

In fact, IME, the genuinely good kids are the ones who don't bat an eyelid. They understand that people are all different, that some struggle more than others, that for a few short weeks they can support someone who might find school tricky, and are happy to do it.

My dc was the role model child put on the "naughty table". He was bullied by the other kids on the table and went from a child who was desperate to go to school to one who was withdrawn, clearly unhappy and who begged not to go to school. This pattern was repeated with other kids put in the same position. I had to go in and point out the difference in my child which the teacher said they hadn't noticed but promptly moved him.

Whatwould

Of course I'd believe her. I'm talking about the times I've seen something happen myself, only to have parents hear a completely different story at home.

Where are we supposed to send these disruptive children again?
School leaders have a duty to make a plan and not expect classroom teachers to keep them in class at whatever cost.

What happens depends on the needs of the child.

Some children have no additional needs and behave badly because:

1. they know that the class teacher won't do anything (reason: the class teacher thinks that having no behaviour points on the system is a badge of honour when the reality is they're just ineffective in the classroom and think by being permissive they'll 'get the naughty ones on side'. This teacher can also be found claiming they don't have issues with behaviour when anyone with their eyes open can see the kids are taking the piss)
2. Class teacher won't do anything (reason: because there's no point when SLT will undermine them, decide the perpetrators and bullies need a hot chocolate and a hi 5 before being returned to class instantly / they know there's a member of SLT who is either lazy, ineffective or like teacher 1)
3. They have a parent who will back them regardless of what they've done, probably because they're like the mumsnetters who are furious that their child was told not to talk to their friend in a test.
4. The whole school behaviour policy isn't fit for purpose so although they're not particularly badly behaved, they're smart enough to realise that SLT are a bit useless

Those students need to be handled through a decent whole school behaviour policy, consistently applied by all staff. Without decent leadership that group will grow as otherwise well behaved children stop seeing the point in behaving.

Then there's students with SEND or home trauma who may display challenging behaviour for genuine background needs. Those children need the SENCo to be up to speed, possible additional training for staff, maybe a time out card to use appropriately, a space for them to go to calm down, reports, maybe some mentoring if there's an appropriate member of staff in school, possibly some timetable changes to help them get back on track, discussion with home and school about how to work towards a resolution, parents may have to get advice from SEND support groups because not all schools are clued up on what can be done. Longer term there may be questions about whether the school can provide the right educational provision.

In my experience the number of students who misbehave who are NT is higher than those with SEND, so if a school focused on getting that right to start with then class teachers are better able to put in the support for students with SEN.

If a class has a handful of disruptive students then for most of them that can be resolved, short of those who have SEN needs who may need a more long term plan. In this case there's no need for the same quiet children to be put next to the disruptive students all the time.

If the majority of students are so disruptive that there's nowhere to seat them without always putting upon the quiet students them the school has a failure at leadership level.

"My dc was the role model child put on the "naughty table". He was bullied by the other kids on the table and went from a child who was desperate to go to school to one who was withdrawn, clearly unhappy and who begged not to go to school."

Well I've repeatedly said that bullying is unacceptable so I'm not sure why you're sharing your anecdote with me like it's revelatory.

Bullying or hurting another child - zero tolerance imo. I can't promise it'll never happen but I can promise to deal with it robustly if I see it or it is brought to my attention.

And what makes you think I'd tolerate that?

I have always always told my kids they dont have to like everyone or be everyone's friends but I will not tolerate them bullying people or they are no better than the other kid .

I'm astounded how teachers withiut fail notice a uniform violation or contraband in lunch boxes but conveniently never see what's happening under their nose in a class room. There's a very selective blindness around certain children and their buffer zone kid. I mean they don't tend to be sat with the kids who will just yell out " just stop ot and do your work or miss can you tell dave to stop kicking me please"

Its very nearly always the quiet kids who won't bother you. So to turn round and say parents are arseholes with whiney snowflakes for pointing out what you know just be true or you'd sit them somewhere else where they'd be told to pack it in, makes you sound really realky uncaring.

As if we don't actually teach our kids that everyones different and to not be arseholes about it. But that shouldn't translate to be a punch bag or you are an intolerant brat.

@rawlikesushi

"I am glad you are nowhere near my kids schools."

Maybe I am? How would you know?

I'd nod and smile at your spurious complaints and laugh at you when you'd gone.

if only it was that easy... you might live in your little bubble, but in the real world, there are other avenues to ensure your child is being respected and your behaviour not tolerated.

I mean they don't tend to be sat with the kids who will just yell out " just stop ot and do your work or miss can you tell dave to stop kicking me please"
As a secondary form tutor that matches my experience.

When staff get their seating plans right, or they rotate regularly then there's rarely any issues. Sometimes I've had a parent call to say their DC has an issue in one subject, it's a one off, it's resolved and there's no issue. There are some colleagues I've worked with who I'd regularly get students or parents saying they're concerned because the teacher develops selective blindness or, worse, reprimands the child for telling the disruptive child to leave them alone.

Most of the time I think staff get it right and they do think about how to seat everyone as best as possible, but when there are issues it's almost always quiet compliant girls who are expected to put up

Thinking about it, I wouldn't want any parent confronted with rawlikesushi in real life to give up.

Let's cut the bullshit for a minute, even someone with such an offensive and disgusting attitude has a head teacher, governors, there's ofsted and local groups to help out and solve the problem.
NO ONE has to put up with bullying and the only option is not to remove your child from school and being called a whiny child and the parents "arseholes" because they refuse to stand for it is not tolerated in this country.

There's a wide range of bullying behaviour, and none of them will be tolerated. It takes a certain kind of person to call you an "arsehole" when you try to stand up for your chid, says it all really. Even if that person is now trying to back track slightly by not accepting "bullying" ..

I realised I had to step in when it dawned on me that the mother of the child dd was supporting to her own detriment didn’t recognise, appreciate or care one tiny jot about my child.

When I mildly mentioned the impact of her child’s issue (with which I really sympathised) on my own dd- utter uttter blankness. Didn’t even register with her, she didn’t care one tiny bit. For her Her child came first, last and always.

That made me realise I had to mirror that but about my own child. If that makes me an arsehole so be it.