School forcing 8am start for my SEN girl?

[emmapemma91]

So I’m having quite a lot of bother with my little girls school. She’s not settling in very well and becoming very distressed when going into school and can become aggressive.
She’s waiting on assessment for possible Autism. She’s 6 and in year 2.

She’s on a reduced timetable at the minute but the school are forcibly telling me they want her in at 8am to give her time to settle before her class come in at 8.45. I’ve told them each time my sons school taxi comes sometime between 8.15 - 8.25 and I can’t get her there, chase her around while she tries to run away, then carry her into school then be back in time for my sons taxi. Yet every day they say the same thing, she hasn’t settled and needs to be in 8am. If I miss his taxi I can’t get him to school as I don’t drive and it’s quite far away.

Is there any solution? I’m sick of fighting with the school to support my daughter.

SOS!SEN started JR proceedings for DS1 and the LA caved following the pre-action letter - but, as they made clear, this was only possible because he already had a water-tight ECHP (expert reports, tribunal directed ss placement). There has to be no wiggle room.

You can't realistically get 1:1 or transport without an EHCP (preferably court tested).

Schools are supposed to provide the first 6k and evidence. But if your child is not there f/t they can't provide the support or collect evidence. There is a logic in that, for the school.

Parents of NT kids are outraged at providing stuff like glue and scissors because the school are underfunded. Imagine the outrage if they were told that their child was on a part-time timetable because it was too expensive to provide f/t and even that was at risk unless they accepted the 'solution' to their child accessing any education or making any, let alone expected, progress was dependent on their personal sacrifice and that they had to rearrange work or child care so that they could provide 'necessary' TA, playground, catering or caretaking support.

Press ahead with the SA. First you need an ECHP. Then you can deal with it's inadequacy.

EP assessment is carried out as part of SA so no need for EP visit before applying. But I would still pay for a private assessment if you can with requested formal assessment using WISC.

The LA has to act on statistically significant measures and, sad to say, some LAs will pressure EPs to not carry out such assessment. They tend to carry out assessment to rule out rather than identify needs with an eye to tribunal. It is easier to justify not meeting need if the needs are not identified in the first place. SA should also identify all needs so you should also request SALT and OT to assess social communication and sensory needs.

On the plus side, if your indi reports identify any significant needs you can bet your bottom dollar that the LA will assess the pants off your DD to try and refute but they will have to use different assessments as their are rules about how frequently a particular assessment can be used. They may wait til Tribunal though - don't forget this is about refuting and not identifying need.

I think you have sufficient evidence that the school do not have your DDs best interests in mind and are not working with you. To my mind any school that suggests a 'part time timetable' (aka illegal exclusion) has already gone nuclear. Word salad - call it what it is - since when has an illegal exclusion (whilst opposing SA) ever been in the interests of a child?

Take some comfort from the fact that it is not personal. The system is horribly adversarial so you will have to arm yourself with knowledge of lawful rights and fight.

For yourself, you need empathy, emotional support and practical/legal guidance to help you fight. You will have to advocate for your child. Stop seeking advice from people with no experience who don't get it. If you want relevant advice you have to go to the right place. Post on the SN boards, FB groups like EHCP experiences.

@KeepOnKeepingOnAgainandAgain thank tot for that reply it’s such a big help. They’re calling it a ‘staged return’ rather than a reduced timetable, as she had only been there 2 days before they imposed it.
I honestly don’t understand why they’re so against a EHCP or any outside help when they just can’t manage her - us it something to do with the funding?

@emmapemma91 It forces them to find the first 6k and explicitly on what's in the plan which schools don't seem to like.

OP it would be helpful if you set out your position in an email to the school.

Summarise what has happened to date. Summarise the school’s stance. Summaries what you think is needed. Ask them to summarise their position in an email.

Keep doing that. If they say something you’re uncomfortable with or unhappy either, send an email after the conversation. Summarise the conversation and ask them to clarify that you’ve understood, or to correct if you’ve picked up incorrectly.

Put in an email that you can’t commit to bringing in your daughter at 8am as you have another child whose needs have to be balanced. Be upfront and assertive about that. Don’t hide away or be embarrassed, it’s a legitimate position. Ask them to work with you on solutions that are workable. Put the ball back in their court. Don’t let them beat you with the stick of: we offered a solution but you refused.

They don’t want written records as they’re not stepping up to the mark. Don’t allow that to continue.

Don’t do it in a confrontational way, keep it light and polite, but assertive. However you feel - you are Mrs reasonable. You want to be able to use any emails do make sure that the content reflects well on you.

Good luck

Thank you @MsControversial. I had a talk with the head teacher again today who seemed a bit pissed off with me to be honest, said if I was so concerned about my daughters well-being id be doing everything possible to get her in early as it’s the only way she’ll settle. Said the school are doing all they can (they’ve contacted CYPS and have an EP appointment) but things take time.

I do understand that but I’d love the EHCP put in place ASAP as I’m aware it’s a long process to get finalised and I don’t think she’ll even make it that long without long term damage to her mental health or a full scale breakdown. It’s awful:

OP this is what I’d expect them to do. Send the email I’ve suggested. Explain why it’s not workable and ask them to work with you to put in place arrangements that work for your family. They’re trying to make you look u reasonable. That’s why it’s important that you create an email trail which demonstrates that you’re being reasonable. It’ll make it much more difficult for them to fob you off. It’s unlikely that they’ll be prepared to put into an email the position they’re giving you in person. I totally understand what they’re currently doing but they’ll be much less likely to take such a hands off approach on emails and if they do it’ll start to create a trail of evidence of their failures. It’s crucial that you do this. It’s the most effective way to hold them to account.

SOS!SEN started JR proceedings for DS1 and the LA caved following the pre-action letter - but, as they made clear, this was only possible because he already had a water-tight ECHP (expert reports, tribunal directed ss placement). There has to be no wiggle room.

That's correct, and it also applies when trying to use the LA complaints system and the LGSCO: the LGSCO equally won't be able to help if provision is worded in vague and non-specific terms.

To all who responded, I took this to 3 senior officials in children's care provisions for a Northern Council including an individual who has almost 20 years in social work and send leadership and yes that is the correct answer. You would be baffled as to how many parents exaggerate or stamp their feet. If it were a case of all plans were already in place I could understand but more than often it is simply a parent pushing for preferential treatment when not legally permitted or financial gain.

Or for financial gain *

@Ghosts2020 your comments defy logic.

You say “ You would be baffled as to how many parents exaggerate or stamp their feet. If it were a case of all plans were already in place I could understand but more than often it is simply a parent pushing for preferential treatment when not legally permitted or financial gain”

If this were true why do you think the majority of parents who appeal on ECHPs win?

They win because the tribunals, applying the law decide the children are entitled to the help.

All your answer shows is how significantly your organisation has lost its way.

@onceuponatimethen I have to inform you you are spreading misinformation which is detrimental to school systems. Please refrain from spreading inaccuracies.

Parents win 90% of Sendist Tribunals which shows that 90% of the time Local Authorities were not following the law. This is on top of all the Local Authorities that concede before they get there.
Parents don't get any financial gain for their child getting extra educational provision so who knows what you are on about there.

"To all who responded, I took this to 3 senior officials in children's care provisions for a Northern Council."

The OP is asking for advice on educational provision not social care.

@Ghosts2020 what are your credentials here? There are plenty of posters on this thread with lived experience of this process, able to offer detailed supportive advice. You have none of that perspective and have supposedly sought information from random, uncited individuals in 'northern' councils....

If I had to choose which path to follow for advice it wouldn't be a tough decision....

@Ghosts2020 can you post data demonstrating that most challenges to ECHPs don’t in fact succeed?

And also @Ghosts2020 what
do you mean ‘correct answer’? Do you mean you believe a school can force a child with SEN to have a start earlier than other children? If so, can you point up the legislation blacking that up, please?

Backing that up please?

Just to prevent anyone being misled, this is a summary of the stats from a publication for Local Government lawyers

localgovernmentlawyer.co.uk/education-law/394-education-news/41778-moj-data-suggests-95-of-sen-tribunal-cases-lost-withdrawn-or-conceded-by-local-authorities-claims-charity

Our LA refused to assess Ds back at the end of August. They had managed to lose all the evidence that I had sent in to support our application. Once we had pointed that out to them, they reconsidered their decision and changed their minds within a couple of hours. They knew they would have looked incompetent if we had gone to tribunal.

Going through the statutory assessment process at the moment, turns out they are completely incompetent and I'm going to have to point that out to them again.

@Spikeyball

Parents win 90% of Sendist Tribunals which shows that 90% of the time Local Authorities were not following the law. This is on top of all the Local Authorities that concede before they get there. Parents don't get any financial gain for their child getting extra educational provision so who knows what you are on about there.

I agree that the LA certainly do dismiss some applications that meet the legal requirements (for example, in my LA, the bar for qualification is significantly higher than the requirements due to the LA having no funding for new EHCPs as it's all tied up in existing EHCPs). This is why they get some overturned.

However, it's dangerous to suggest that this is happening 90% of the time. The fact that 90% of appeals nationally are successful does not mean that LAs were wrong in 90% of all cases. For example, if they reject 100 applications and, of those, 20% take it to appeal and 90% of those win, that means that LA was only wrong in 18 cases so 18% of their total applications.

But equally not all parents who could be entitled to appeal (and who might have won) will actually appeal

So during the phone call with HT yesterday, she she told me she’d have a member of staff at the school at 7.45 so I would have plenty time to get back.

So went to the school at 8.45 only to stand outside the gate for 15 minutes with no answer on the buzzer. That’s fun with a little girl who hates school! When we eventually got in at 8 (with a crowd full of children for breakfast club) the HT was inside. Then she took her through the main office knowing she hates that, she usually goes in the main door for her class.

Lucky my partner is off today to watch my older son because I wasn’t back in time!

Do put this in an email to them straight away

For example, if they reject 100 applications and, of those, 20% take it to appeal and 90% of those win, that means that LA was only wrong in 18 cases so 18% of their total applications.

You are looking at it in black and white; not the shades of grey. There are many reasons why 90% of parents don’t appeal, and it’s not all because the LA are right:

1. Parents who naively believe public servants, as they assume public servants have their child’s best interests at heart, when they don’t - they lie and cheat because all they care about is saving this year’s budget

1. Parents, who have passed their own SEN onto their children, and can’t understand the formal letters, or write them back; and don’t have the confidence to challenge a LA

1. Parents who have English as a second language and don’t understand formal letters, etc

1. Parents, who work full time and do not have the time or energy to fight for their children

1. Parents, who do not have the wherewithal to recognise the extent of their children’s difficulties, nor fight for them

1. Parents with their own mental health problems, marital problems (such as one parent thinks the child is fine anyway), etc

1. Parents living in poverty are not going to be able to afford even one independent EP report to document the reality of the child’s problems