School forcing 8am start for my SEN girl?

[emmapemma91]

So I’m having quite a lot of bother with my little girls school. She’s not settling in very well and becoming very distressed when going into school and can become aggressive.
She’s waiting on assessment for possible Autism. She’s 6 and in year 2.

She’s on a reduced timetable at the minute but the school are forcibly telling me they want her in at 8am to give her time to settle before her class come in at 8.45. I’ve told them each time my sons school taxi comes sometime between 8.15 - 8.25 and I can’t get her there, chase her around while she tries to run away, then carry her into school then be back in time for my sons taxi. Yet every day they say the same thing, she hasn’t settled and needs to be in 8am. If I miss his taxi I can’t get him to school as I don’t drive and it’s quite far away.

Is there any solution? I’m sick of fighting with the school to support my daughter.

The main component in the increase of autism is actually an increase in the diagnosis of autism, as understanding has increased and diagnostic criteria has expanded this leads to greater recognition. There are quite a few parents who, when their child is being assessed, recognise many of the behaviours and impairments in themselves and come to the realisation that they may be autistic too but it wasn't picked up in childhood as their particular profile wasn't recognised as such back then. This is particularly the case with women as autism is women and girls in often missed and their experiences put down to them being "highly strung" or "sensitive".

@Gancanny

The main component in the increase of autism is actually an increase in the diagnosis of autism, as understanding has increased and diagnostic criteria has expanded this leads to greater recognition. There are quite a few parents who, when their child is being assessed, recognise many of the behaviours and impairments in themselves and come to the realisation that they may be autistic too but it wasn't picked up in childhood as their particular profile wasn't recognised as such back then. This is particularly the case with women as autism is women and girls in often missed and their experiences put down to them being "highly strung" or "sensitive".

Yep, I've met more than I can count female adults who are being diagnosed later in life. The age range from 34 - 70s. Also women with a ADHD diagnosis also. Now they understand their childhoods and difficulties. Men are being diagnosed also bit there's been an avalanche of women. It's so much more common than people think it is.

If I think back to my own school days I can certainly remember a few children who would give me pause for thought, knowing what know now.

One my friends is having such a hard time at the moment getting past the gatekeepers to get her daughter assessed. She approached school SENCO with her worries and was told "that's just how girls are", same from the GP too. So many women with neurodevelopmental differences meet this sort of dismissive attitude.

When I was at school there was always the quiet children who were left to colour all day or stare out of the window. There was much less pressure in education in the 80s/90s. No OFSTED either so no one seemed bothered about the kids who didn’t produce any work. There is so much pressure on little ones, plus modern life is so much louder, more chaotic, more rushed. I think this contributes to the number of children not coping. My DD is very demand avoidant but bright. If there was no pressure on her to work she would have been very happy at school and we wouldn’t have had daily meltdowns.

The school might be able to advocate on your behalf to get the taxi pickup time changed or moved to the school.

As for your DD’s troubles, it’s really hard to know how to proceed, even when you have every detail of info which just can’t happen on a message board. I will say that these things always move much too slowly. We were able to speed up the process a bit by accessing private evaluations, but that only speeds things up a little.

My dd did a week under her desk in year 4. She had a stressful incident while simultaneously having a bad reaction to asthma medication. It was awful. One thing the school recommended was that she be encouraged to leave the classroom and go to one of the respite spots (counselors office, special needs classroom, etc) in the building instead of sitting under her desk. We couldn’t convince her to do this, but I do think it’s a good idea. It helps remove the stigma, prevents classroom disruption, and gives the child a sense of agency. “I’m stressed and need to go to my relaxation space” gives her some control.

"My question is, how do you know from such an early age that children have possible sen, and not just stubborn/immature etc?"

My son had obvious developmental delays eg no speech but the biggest difficulty in his mainstream classroom was that he couldn't cope with the environment. He was clearly distressed about the noise, the movement, the number of children and everything being bright and 'busy' looking and unpredictable.He flinched when anyone came near him. He coped with this by constant repetitive behaviour and then eventually shrieking and lashing out at anyone nearby when his anxiety became too great.

I started being concerned about Ds when he was about 2, but because he has a lot of physical health problems my concerns where ignored.

When he was at the school nursery they agreed with me and got the ball rolling supporting referrals and pushing the school nurse. He was granted an EHCP when he was in year 1 and finally diagnosed the week before his 7th birthday.

When he was diagnosed i was told I was lucky he went to the school he did because pupils who present like Ds was at that point tend to slide under the radar for way too long

With my DD there was absolutely nothing "typical" about her behaviour from a very young age. Not challenging at such but definitely remarkable odd/different.

I'm 90% sure I'm a missed girl though and I'm also on the spectrum but slid under the radar

"My question is, how do you know from such an early age that children have possible sen, and not just stubborn/immature etc?"

It looks very different- I suspect in the past kids were labelled as being difficult or stubborn and their needs overlooked. In some cases I suspect that classrooms were much less “busy” and so less triggering, or much more regimented and more disciplined so kids just learned to mask at school because there was no other option. I also think that many kids had an utterly miserable time at school.

We’re also much more aware of the impact of pre-birth experiences, trauma and adversity now so it’s much more on the radar. Our understanding of healthy development and what gets in the way of healthy development is much more advanced now and so differences tend to get noticed by parents or in nursery. In my experience parents are more likely to question the school if their child is unhappy or appears not to be coping so it’s harder to brush under the carpet or ignore. I know I’m much more likely to raise issues or challenge the school than my parents ever were - meaning my kids have such a better experience than I did.

My mum's friend had a little boy who was considered to be "a handful". He would have awful 'tantrums' where he would kick, scream, throw and break things, and headbutt the walls and floor. He was also a terrible sleeper and only slept for around 2-3 hours a night. Her health visitor advised her to put a bolt on the outside of his bedroom door and lock him in there when he was having one of these tantrums as no attention would quickly put an end to them. She also advised locking the bolt at bedtime and not opening it again until breakfast time. I remember my mum, who had an autistic child, was horrified and suggested speaking to the GP instead. The GP told the mother of this boy that there was no way he was autistic as he could interact with others and was making eye contact. This was around 1991/92 so not that long ago in the grand scheme of it. He did go on to be diagnosed with autism and ADHD but not until he was in a young offenders institution and it was picked up as part of his therapy there

Like Sirzy, any early issues with ds were put down to health issues.
Even though his disabilities and delays were fairly obvious (didn't sit until 15 months, walked when he was 2.5, but needed lots of support due to low muscle tone, didn't talk at all until nearly 5) and lots of involvement from professionals, we still struggled with school, either minimising and dismissing difficulties and health issues or framing it as a parenting issues.
Any referrals for ASD, ADHD, CAMHS were not supported by school. It wasn't until ds was diagnosed with a rare genetic condition at 8, which coincided with him becoming very ill, that things slightly improved.

It has been a constant, and very difficult fight, which has, at times, nearly broken me.
Not that long ago, I think that if Ds had survived his birth, and many hospitalizations, he would have been described as 'slow', and left school early, he wouldn't have been diagnosed with anything (as genetics hadn't developed the testing).

Also, thinking about my work (early years usually working 1-1 with children with complex needs)...I think that the input of health visitors, children's centres, better training for early years practitioners, the development of the EYFS and development matters - which could highlight when children's development might not be following a typical pattern...have all helped in identifying and getting better support (even if it doesn't feel like it!)

Ds's difficulties were flagged by his reception teacher at his first parents evening when he was four years old. He had already had a years worth of speech therapy.

He finally received an autism diagnosis last September. He was in year 11 and 15 years old. The late diagnosis has caused multiple issues, so many opportunities for support missed.

Listening to these stories I cannot imagine how stressful it must be on a day to day basis for parents and children. It also sounds like schools are woefully underfunded, which must cause frustration for teachers too.

@Freespirit1511

“With my DD there was absolutely nothing "typical" about her behaviour from a very young age. Not challenging at such but definitely remarkable odd/different.”

If you don’t mind me asking, what sort of things?

Tbh OP i would stop forcing your child to attend. It's a complete waste of time anyway for her to spend three hours under a table and will be damaging to her mental health. Instead I would speak to the GP, chase a referral to CAMHS contact the school each morning saying you have tried but her anxiety is too high. Nothing motivates a school like a hit on their attendance figures IME. At the same time contact the LEA ask them to make provision for a child unable to attend school as per Section 19 of the Education Act and LGO report Out of School Out of Mind.

@hiredandsqueak

Tbh OP i would stop forcing your child to attend. It's a complete waste of time anyway for her to spend three hours under a table and will be damaging to her mental health. Instead I would speak to the GP, chase a referral to CAMHS contact the school each morning saying you have tried but her anxiety is too high. Nothing motivates a school like a hit on their attendance figures IME. At the same time contact the LEA ask them to make provision for a child unable to attend school as per Section 19 of the Education Act and LGO report Out of School Out of Mind.

Very good advice above.

Thank you! I think this is something I’m going to have to seriously consider if things don’t improve quickly, it’s heartbreaking.
Do you have any good guidance so that the LEA can’t turn it on me and I end up with fines coming out my ears 🙄

Well my dd didn't go to school for months and I never heard a thing from the school or the LEA. I later complained about the LEA failing to provide a tutor and they ended up paying me £2k for not providing a tutor. If you are seeking medical support for anxiety and pursuing a EHC needs assessment then in our LA anyway there is no cause for prosecution. Contact Education Welfare yourself and ask them to support you in securing help for your child to enable them to attend school.

At the same time contact the LEA ask them to make provision for a child unable to attend school as per Section 19 of the Education Act and LGO report Out of School Out of Mind

You'll need some sort of medical backing to get this.

You don't get fines because: you apply for assessment for a EHCP, you make sure you get all refusals and issues when she is at school recorded, you make sure your GP knows about her issues, basically you build up a wadge of evidence. (I would start keeping a diary of everything you can, and if you think of things from her past that could be relevant, then record them too.)
When she refuses to go into school - you phone school, don't make excuses but say she won't be in because she is distressed/ he mental health. If they send her home early then you make sure they give you an exclusion letter.
If the school or LA threaten you with the Education Welfare officer, you say great, and explain to the EWO exactly what is happening.
You request formal meetings with the SENCO, and get everything in writing, if necessary emailing them after meetings to make sure you have the key points clear.
You don't need a diagnosis for a EHCP, you need a need - it seems you probably have one.
Also find yourself a support network - where I live there is a great network of Mum's with daughters on the spectrum, who are invaluable for recommendations and help.

At the same time contact the LEA ask them to make provision for a child unable to attend school as per Section 19 of the Education Act and LGO report Out of School Out of Mind

DD was out of school twice, as schools could not cope with her medical needs, and she was school refusing - 7 months the first time, and 9 months the second time. The LA wouldn’t provide any home tuition at all. Iirc, they had made some of the home tutors redundant and they said the rest weren’t much good! You could quote what you like at my LA, and they took no notice, until court action - and they knew I had a solicitor and barrister for 15 years, Considering I was usually appealing to the Tribunal for an expensive specialist school, my solicitor never advised me to make a complaint to the LGO at the same time about the lack of home tuition - and I didn’t have time or head space for both processes at once. In fact I don’t think my solicitor believed in complaints to the LGO full stop - he used to tell me, after we had won the tribunal:

“You got what you wanted, leave it there!”

@MollyButton, it's not just a question of whether OP will be fined, it's a question of whether she will get home tuition from the LA. If they won't provide it voluntarily, which is extremely likely, the reality is you won't get a court to order it without some sort of independent evidence that the child is unable to go into school.

Referrals are enough evidence of medical needs. Waiting lists for CAMHS around were are seven months pre Covid probably even longer now. LGO ruling says that LA's must make provision when a child has been absent for fifteen days and very few areas will have access to medical services within fifteen days. Dd got a tutor before she saw CAMHS. Our LA also paid me £153 for each week after the first fifteen days they had failed to make the necessary provision. LGO later ordered them to pay a further £300 for the time and trouble of my complaint.

You need to inform the LEA that your child is out of school and remind them of their responsibility to make provision quoting section 19 and the LGO report. On day sixteen of absence you start a formal complaint over failure to make provision. You pursue the formal complaint to the end and then send it to LGO.
The LEA are legally obliged to make provision, it isn't a choice and if there aren't tutors available then they must use an independent service. Our LEA paid NT&AS £90ph because they said they didn't have an in house tutor available.
You need to stop listening to LEA policies and bullshit and hold them accountable to the law. The law is there to protect our children so use it to force the LEA to meet their statutory duty.