To think that the decision to have children is a risk...

[GreenWoodpecker123456]

...because you can never be sure whether you'll enjoy being a parent, what kind of child you'll have etc.

I ws having this conversation with someone and they said it's no more of a risk than anything else in life like getting married or going into a particular career.

I don't agree, because having kids is the one thing in life that you truly can't reverse!

AIBU?

Considering all the estranged children you read about on MN and beyond, perhaps it’s no mystery. A lot of bad parenting, and this is the result?

It's not necessarily a bad relationship - some kids live abroad or even even just the other end of the country can make it difficult or too expensive to visit often.

My elderly relatives never were alone like that, I’m sure many other posters attest to the love and care they put into their elderly family members.

That's good to know but seeing those poor patients sitting there day after day is a real eye-opener! One woman used to cry a lot she was so lonely - heart-breaking.

. 'It's better to regret the things you did than the things you didn't' is a saying - I personally think a silly one, but it's popular

I agree! Speaking for myself, it's the things I DID in the past I would change if I could.

*So people who decide not to have children are timid, risk-averse types who always wait for the green man on empty roads, and scuttle carefully through beige little lives, avoiding contact sports, mountain-climbing, falling in love and driving over 20 mph?

Well, I suppose it's a change from the stereotype that the childfree by choice are chilly, selfish careerists who zoom around in Ferraris in expensive shoes and spend every weekend on foreign citybreaks, and then die alone, eaten by regrets in old age, eaten by their Alsatians.*

Well not everyone who decides not to have children has the same reasons...if the reason for not having children is the risk of something not going well, then I guess this sub-group is actually risk-averse. I would never preach to anyone how my life choices are better than theirs. But I know for sure that you can not love anyone the same way you love your child if you are a typical human being. People can say they love their spouse unconditonally but it's most probably not true, they would leave them if betrayed. Even if they know that their child murdered someone, most people won't leave or stop loving their children. It's a different quality of love. I wouldn't die for my DH, but I would for my child. And experiencing that kind of love is getting to know yourself on a completely different level, it is spiritual growth. It doesn't mean that I would ever say anything like that to my childfree friend, first of all I don't even know if she couldn't have kids or decided not to... these decisions are private and it's not my place to start that conversation.

But I know for sure that you can not love anyone the same way you love your child if you are a typical human being. People can say they love their spouse unconditonally but it's most probably not true, they would leave them if betrayed. Even if they know that their child murdered someone, most people won't leave or stop loving their children. It's a different quality of love. I wouldn't die for my DH, but I would for my child. And experiencing that kind of love is getting to know yourself on a completely different level, it is spiritual growth.

Again, this is your own experience, and bully for you. I have a child I love, and while absolutely I would die for them, I refute the idea that the willingness to die for your child involves any kind of 'spiritual growth' whatsoever. It's simply that instinctive animal self-preservation instinct expands to include your child as well as yourself, and prioritises the child.

And experiencing that kind of love is getting to know yourself on a completely different level, it is spiritual growth.

I've often thought about that. I hope you don't mind me chiming in, but is it really spiritual growth do you think? I see it more as a biological thing helped by the oxytocin bonding hormone.

All animals feel like that about their offspring and most would fight to the death to protect them - I don't think it's a spiritual thing with a bear for instance.

To me, real spiritual growth is loving the people in our world to whom we are not biologically attached, and from whom we would never expect to get anything in return. It's easy to buy a present for, cuddle your child and forgive them as they are part of you. It's much harder to love the "unlovable" and yet that would be real spiritual growth IMO.

@Bankingswitch

. 'It's better to regret the things you did than the things you didn't' is a saying - I personally think a silly one, but it's popular

I agree! Speaking for myself, it's the things I DID in the past I would change if I could.

I just think it's a silly linguistic trick - all actions are both positive and negative choices. Do I regret that I did not end my relationship with my ex sooner or do I regret that I did move in with him? They're kind of the same decision. If I regretted having DS would I regret that I did have a baby or would I regret that I didn't choose to prioritise my career/ to give myself time to travel/ to create more time for just DH and I/etc, etc? Every choice is a positive one to do something (doing nothing is a choice) that necessitates choosing not to do the many other possibilities.

I do think I have a love for DS like nothing else I have ever experienced but I also think it would be supremely arrogant to think that that means no one else ever experiences it without having a child or that everyone experiences it if they have a child - did Baby P's mum experience a love like no other? I also don't think I'd describe it as spiritual growth - it's certainly changed me as a person but in many ways I feel more inward looking, not less.

I'm not a particularly patient person, I like my sleep, I'm not good at being needed, or doing things I don't want to do, being financially secure is important to me, and I'd like to retire early. I don't massively enjoy the company of small children, what if I felt like that about my own

These were all the things I thought before having dd

Still don’t like other people’s children

Worked on a hospital ward for the elderly. No-one was visiting these patients. I did all sorts of shifts. Almost every one had children but you'd never know it

You only see the people who are in hospital not the elderly who have their own lives or have their families living with them or they living with their children.

Friend worked as a geriatric nurse and was adamant that she didn’t want to live beyond 60 as when you got to 60 your life was so awful and you had so many illnesses that it made life not worth living. As that was what she saw.
Trying to explain that the only people she saw were actually ill otherwise they wouldn’t have been in hospital and that outside of a hospital environment there were other elderly people who were well and going about their lives, going on holiday and generally enjoying life

Just because you see a tiny proportion of people on their own doesn’t mean that everyone with children is going to end up like that.

My neighbour was on his own in a big house. His Ds the golden child lived in Australia and his dd who lived about 40 minutes away used to visit weekly to help out but she had already been told that she wasn’t getting the house or anything as he was leaving everything to her db.
Then he would complain to me how she only came up once per week.

When he went into a home I don’t think she visited. Not because she wasn’t getting anything in his will but because he was an arse.

Just because there is an elderly man/woman crying in their bed because they are so lonely doesn’t mean their family don’t care or have abandoned them. They could just live in a different country so can’t visit on a daily basis.
Or they could have been subject to their abuse growing up and put distance between them

@Bankingswitch

. 'It's better to regret the things you did than the things you didn't' is a saying - I personally think a silly one, but it's popular

I agree! Speaking for myself, it's the things I DID in the past I would change if I could.

To me it just sounds like a rather dubious justification for doing things that are actually quite selfish, morally questionable or have negative consequences for other people.

All animals feel like that about their offspring and most would fight to the death to protect them

This isn't universally true. For some animals, offspring become a snack in hard times. Including bears.

The decision to have children might be a risk but the decision to not have children has it’s own set of health risks.

@blue25

Completely agree. My sibling has a child with profound and multiple life long needs. Her life is completely dictated by her child. She basically has no life of her own and my nephew will never be independent. It’s been horrendous and led to marriage break down, loss of career.

Lots of people assume they’ll have a healthy child & never think how they’d cope with a disabled child.

This is so true blue25. For a long time I didn't want kids but then when I realised that I did, DH and I didn't give a thought to what would happen if our child had a disability. I often read about or see parents in your DSis's situation and wonder how I would cope - I'm not sure I would to be honest. So I will definitely be saying this to my DCs when they are older - it is indeed a risk.

And from a personal point of view while I wouldn't change my kids for the world, the difficulties we've been having with DC1 over the past year were definitely not something we ever thought we'd have to go through, and the impact on my (and DH's) own mental health has been huge.

animals will fight to the death to protect their offspring precisely because the offspring can then become a handy snack if things get really bad
As far as I can see some human parents similarly will (symbolically) consume their own young to save themselves

I completely agree it’s a massive risk OP, probably the biggest leap of faith in our lives, because it is so all encompassing and so irreversible.

I think people who have children despite the risk have either

1. got such a biological urge to have children that it overcomes all worries about the risks and downsides
2. convinced themselves their DC will be perfect, easy, children and they “won’t let it change their lives” or
3. just not thought that much about it

Or some combination of the above. I think I was a combination of 1 and 2.

@Oliversmumsarmy

The decision to have children might be a risk but the decision to not have children has it’s own set of health risks.

Like what? I can't think of any way in which having children makes you healthier, and the data on whether it makes you happier is very mixed, and really not something an individual could make a decision based on

Lots of people assume they’ll have a healthy child & never think how they’d cope with a disabled child.

Completely agree with this too. Except I’d change “lots of people” to “everyone”

@minipie

I completely agree it’s a massive risk OP, probably the biggest leap of faith in our lives, because it is so all encompassing and so irreversible.

I think people who have children despite the risk have either

1. got such a biological urge to have children that it overcomes all worries about the risks and downsides
2. convinced themselves their DC will be perfect, easy, children and they “won’t let it change their lives” or
3. just not thought that much about it

Or some combination of the above. I think I was a combination of 1 and 2.

I agree with this. I think I was about 80% 1 and 20% 2, but if I'd conceived DS when I first wanted to, rather than two years later after three miscarriages, I would have been more like 33-33-33. I remember having a conversation with my counsellor about how I had spent so much time thinking about it all and wondering if it was all a sign about whether I would be fit to be a mother, whereas if I'd had a baby easily I'd have just got on with it.

Like what? I can't think of any way in which having children makes you healthier, and the data on whether it makes you happier is very mixed, and really not something an individual could make a decision based on

Apparently higher risk of breast/ovarian cancer if you don’t have children. But that would be an awful reason to have them.

From a health point of view it's probably optimal to have 1-2 children in your late teens
(To be clear I'm not saying that is optimal in any other respects!)

@minipie

I completely agree it’s a massive risk OP, probably the biggest leap of faith in our lives, because it is so all encompassing and so irreversible.

I think people who have children despite the risk have either

1. got such a biological urge to have children that it overcomes all worries about the risks and downsides
2. convinced themselves their DC will be perfect, easy, children and they “won’t let it change their lives” or
3. just not thought that much about it

Or some combination of the above. I think I was a combination of 1 and 2.

Or they've considered the risks at length and decided to take them? I was almost 40 when I had DS, and had thought long and hard about most of the issues raised on the thread so far. Having said that, DH and I were also okay with the idea that we'd quite possibly left it too late, and that we might not conceive, and were aware of the increased potential for chromosomal abnormalities.

Having been happily childfree for twenty years plus of adult life, I remain convinced that we would have been just as happy had we not had DS, deeply though we adore him -- we would just have been differently happy and spent more time doing different things.

@CutToChase

I think the child free perspectives on here are in many ways more insightful. Because unless you have fertility issues it's almost easier to have a child than not, in terms of the thought process that needs to happen. So essentially I think on average probably child free women have given it more thought than the average of women with children who may have just kind of "gone with it".

Me and DH discussed at great length whether to have children or not.

We decided not to for quite a few reasons.

Lots of the women or couples I know with children say they never really talked about it, they just had them because "it's what you do", "it's normal" etc. Also quite a few of them were accidents so, obviously, no discussion beforehand.

I know 3 couples who got married having never discussed children and then found 1 did want them and 1 didn't.

It doesn't really make sense to me that something as major as bringing another person into the world warrants so little thought.

The thing is, though, DH and I spent literally years discussing whether or not we really wanted children, the pros and cons, whether we thought we'd be good parents, how far we would be willing to go to have children (would we have fertility treatment/adopt/etc) and all that - but the conversation still came back to the same place every time, which was that we really, really wanted a child and that we couldn't imagine never trying to have one (or stopping). Again, I just don't think it's ever a logically made decision - it's a bit like a relationship: if you're drawing up pros and cons lists and seriously weighing them up then actually you have your answer already, you don't want it.

@juliastone

I wonder if people who decide not to have a child because "it's a big risk", take any other risks in their lives? Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Life is about being brave and taking risks, being active and living the fullest life you can. Parenthood is hard at times, sometimes boring, but it's worth it: you will never love anyone the way you love your child, and it's impossible to know this or feel this before actually having a child. I don't understand why so many non-parent people on this thread who say to be so sure of making the right decision seem to be so defensive. It's great if you made the right decision, enjoy it and own it without attacking the reasons of the other club.

I would not say my (or DH's) reasons for not having children were because it is a risk. There were quite a few reasons we decided not to.

It is only now that I am older that I can see the risks. I know so many couples whose marriage broke down after having children. Of course it may have broken down without children but most of them say they think it was due to having children.

Also the risks of having a child with serious health problems/ disabilities. I don't think I would ever have thought about that when I was young if I had decided to have children.

I am not sure that I agree with your view that life is about being brave and taking risks. What risks exactly? Mountain climbing, parachuting? The majority of people probably don't take many, if any, risks in life except maybe for having children.

Parenthood is worth it for you but, for quite a few, it isn't.

I completely agree with you OP.

Many huge life changing decisions we make impact mainly on ourselves only. Still a massive decision, but we can deal with the impact with the thought that we made the choice.

The decision to get married or enter into a committed partnership involves someone else. But hopefully the decisions are mutual, and both partners work to ensure both go in with their eyes as open as possible. Two equals in the decision making, or that would be the aim.

But having a child is so unequal. The child has no choice in being born, and is totally dependent on the adult(s). From the moment they are born (and before), the adult is tied to them and responsible for them. So if it turns out you don't like being a parent or the change in your life, it isn't just you that suffers, and it isn't two consenting adults that suffer. The child disproportionately suffers and the adult's regret and suffering can be multiplied by that knowledge and guilt.

It is a huge risk, and most people talking about just feeling the fear and doing it anyway are maybe not thinking enough of the child who may feel the fear but had no part in the decision.

Just because there is an elderly man/woman crying in their bed because they are so lonely doesn’t mean their family don’t care or have abandoned them. They could just live in a different country so can’t visit on a daily basis.

I totally understand that. It's just that the ones I saw were the vulnerable ones who could probably have used the company the most unlike the fit and healthy elderly.

Few of us won't end up in a hospital or nursing home even it's it just briefly At the end of life.

As you rightly say, there are many good reasons why children can't visit.

The reason I raised the subject here is that "who will visit when you are old" is often trotted out to the childless