To think that the decision to have children is a risk...

[GreenWoodpecker123456]

...because you can never be sure whether you'll enjoy being a parent, what kind of child you'll have etc.

I ws having this conversation with someone and they said it's no more of a risk than anything else in life like getting married or going into a particular career.

I don't agree, because having kids is the one thing in life that you truly can't reverse!

AIBU?

One might ask you why it’s inappropriate to express ‘disdain’ towards the idea of parenthood? Are only glowy, positive emotions permitted?

It would appear that to some people that it is the case, yes...

@FutureProofed @SecretSpAD Like I said in my example in the PP, people have implied that those who say how great becoming a parent is, MUST be lying. It's that specifically which I find really off. There's also alot of assumptions that simply aren't true.Expressing joy, disdain, whatever at something is fine. But why imply people who are happy with their decisions MUST be lying?

I think the child free perspectives on here are in many ways more insightful. Because unless you have fertility issues it's almost easier to have a child than not, in terms of the thought process that needs to happen. So essentially I think on average probably child free women have given it more thought than the average of women with children who may have just kind of "gone with it".

Note the vast majority of distain is aimed at those who are happy with their decision to have children. Almost as if we’ve let the side down by conforming.

FFS another thread that's gone from a debate to bash the women without children.

I'm done.

This is exactly why I don't have children. I always assumed the desire to do so would kick in at some point, and that I'd have kids. Crunch point came about age 42 when I realised I had to make a decision one way or another so I could either get in with TTC or put it to bed and get on with the rest of my life...I felt in limbo like I couldn't really work out what I wanted to do career-wise, where to live etc until I knew whether we were going to aim to have children or not. DH wasn't really bothered either way, although I did know given free choice he would probably have said no.

I spent months and months thinking over it, and it felt too risky for me - I'm not a particularly patient person, I like my sleep, I'm not good at being needed, or doing things I don't want to do, being financially secure is important to me, and I'd like to retire early. I don't massively enjoy the company of small children, what if I felt like that about my own? DH wasnt that keen; would he leave me if he found it too hard? It's not a risk I was willing to take, partly for myself, but mainly for my hypothetical child; there was too big a risk I wouldn't be a great mother and I didn't want that for any child I brought into the world.

Even after I'd made the decision I still felt quite sad about it on and off for a while, but several years on now I'm too old to have them, I don't regret it at all. Was it the 'right' decision? Would I have been happier than I am now? Who knows. But I made a decision that could really only have a negative impact on me and me alone. Had I decided the other way I could have made myself utterly miserable, and foisted my potentially terrible mothering on a child that deserved better.

unless you have fertility issues it's almost easier to have a child than not, in terms of the thought process that needs to happen

Yes, and it does require consistent planning, foresight and self-restraint not to become pregnant over 20-30 years of fertile life if there is no sense of 'I'll take a chance because it wouldn't be the end of the world if it happened.'

@TheClawww

One of the biggest things that puts me off having children is the way parents gush about parenthood.

Here are some examples right here on this thread:

"the first time [we get to] experience true unconditional love"
"the most amazing thing I've done"
"parenthood has enriched my life beyond what I ever could have expected"
"the best thing to ever happen to me"
"Having children [was] the most incredible, amazing and rewarding experience"
"joy and sheer wonder that comes from creating life"
"they enriched my life beyond my expectations"

etc etc etc

These aren't normal phrases. This is the kind of thing I'd expect to hear from someone embroiled in a cult, or on drugs. Or - dare I say it - the kind of thing someone would say when they're trying to cover up to themselves and others that they've made a mistake.

That in combination with the pressure of society puts on parents to make it out to be great, plus the stigma on parents who admit they don't like it - makes me really worried that having a child would brainwash me - both hormonally and socially.

People - especially parents - are heavily, heavily biased into saying that having kids is amazing. This bias isn't just social, but hormonal and probably psychological.

I think you captured it there. It's frightening though. Where do we go from here? A lonely road. But maybe that's human nature as well.

Personally I am just so glad I don't have the incontinence problems that it seems almost all women who have children have. To have to plan your day if you go out because of needing the loo so often would drive me mad.

The possible effects on your body are a more than valid reason not to have children (in fact I don’t think there’s such a thing as an invalid reason for a person not to want children) and indeed they are the reason I delayed for a long time. But - and I am going off at a tangent here - I really really object to the idea that incontinence is a normal feature of post-partum life. It’s not uncommon, but it is NOT normal - it’s totally avoidable with good maternity care and good postnatal care, both of which are a lottery in this country, and that’s why you hear a lot about it. Women should not be accepting it as normal.

Obviously don’t have children if the risks are unacceptable to you. But the risk you’re talking about is more a risk of substandard care than a risk of becoming a mother, and women shouldn’t have to choose between motherhood and continence.

Where is the disdain? Because one person said she's glad she doesn't have incontinence problems that women who have had children have?

Pregnancy affects a women's body, it's just a fact of life, there is no disdain in acknowledging that.

I'm with you @FTMF30 🙏🏼

I never had incontinence and I was amazed at how my body felt much more like mine again within a few weeks especially after a cut, tear, forceps, suction cup etc.

My stomach is a bit softer than normal, but that's it.

Motherhood has changed me, I'm finally realising it may be for the better. I do think needing fertility treatment made me more determined to have a child. If I could have had one without treatment, one tube, PCOS, etc, I may have waited a bit longer or questioned it more. I was 28. My biggest regret is how i let the fear of being childless ruin most of my 20s. I felt like a failure, not like a real woman. I assumed having a child would make me feel differently, but unfortunately it caused a huge mental health decline, to the point I was offered a place in a psychiatric hospital as I was going to kill myself due to severe PND. Having a child brought up lots of past childhood trauma and grief from losing my own mother as a child. That combined with a traumatic birth and not feeling this instant rush of love all the adverts portray, led me to dark places. It has taken me ten months to get to a better place.

So my life had been turned upside down. Would I change it?
Who knows

I wonder if people who decide not to have a child because "it's a big risk", take any other risks in their lives? Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Life is about being brave and taking risks, being active and living the fullest life you can. Parenthood is hard at times, sometimes boring, but it's worth it: you will never love anyone the way you love your child, and it's impossible to know this or feel this before actually having a child. I don't understand why so many non-parent people on this thread who say to be so sure of making the right decision seem to be so defensive. It's great if you made the right decision, enjoy it and own it without attacking the reasons of the other club.

Personally I am just so glad I don't have the incontinence problems that it seems almost all women who have children have

The ‘seems’ in this sentence is doing an awful lot of work here .....

@juliastone

I wonder if people who decide not to have a child because "it's a big risk", take any other risks in their lives? Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Life is about being brave and taking risks, being active and living the fullest life you can. Parenthood is hard at times, sometimes boring, but it's worth it: you will never love anyone the way you love your child, and it's impossible to know this or feel this before actually having a child. I don't understand why so many non-parent people on this thread who say to be so sure of making the right decision seem to be so defensive. It's great if you made the right decision, enjoy it and own it without attacking the reasons of the other club.

So many parents are at such pains to tell the childfree by choice how much they will regret it. But most of them are happy to risk possible future regret rather than regret having a child. So I don’t think it’s about risk aversion.

Worked on a hospital ward for the elderly. No-one was visiting these patients. I did all sorts of shifts. Almost every one had children but you'd never know it. They were long term "bed-blockers" (horrible term) waiting for a nursing home placement after falls. There for months. No visitors. None!!!!

I don't have children but the old "who'll visit you when you're old" question has no impact on me as a childless woman.

Personally I am just so glad I don't have the incontinence problems that it seems almost all women who have children have

The ‘seems’ in this sentence is doing an awful lot of work here

Apart from adverts trying to sell incontinence knickers most women I would say don’t have an issue so where the “seems” comes from is from adverts on tv rather than rl

Op here!

I've been reading all the replies and it's so interesting to see people's viewpoints, but when I originally started this thread it wasn't to pit parents against childfree people. It was to see if people agreed that having children is a risk, and more of a risk than, for example getting married or even moving to a different country. My argument is that it is, because it's so irreversible.

The person I was speaking to (who doesn't currently have kids) doesn't see it as any more of a risk than anything else. In fact one argument was 'You could be hit by a car today just by walking out of your front door'. Hmmmm slightly different I think!

@juliastone

I wonder if people who decide not to have a child because "it's a big risk", take any other risks in their lives? Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Life is about being brave and taking risks, being active and living the fullest life you can. Parenthood is hard at times, sometimes boring, but it's worth it: you will never love anyone the way you love your child, and it's impossible to know this or feel this before actually having a child. I don't understand why so many non-parent people on this thread who say to be so sure of making the right decision seem to be so defensive. It's great if you made the right decision, enjoy it and own it without attacking the reasons of the other club.

So people who decide not to have children are timid, risk-averse types who always wait for the green man on empty roads, and scuttle carefully through beige little lives, avoiding contact sports, mountain-climbing, falling in love and driving over 20 mph?

Well, I suppose it's a change from the stereotype that the childfree by choice are chilly, selfish careerists who zoom around in Ferraris in expensive shoes and spend every weekend on foreign citybreaks, and then die alone, eaten by regrets in old age, eaten by their Alsatians.

Worked on a hospital ward for the elderly. No-one was visiting these patients. I did all sorts of shifts. Almost every one had children but you'd never know it. They were long term "bed-blockers" (horrible term) waiting for a nursing home placement after falls. There for months. No visitors. None!!!!

Considering all the estranged children you read about on MN and beyond, perhaps it’s no mystery. A lot of bad parenting, and this is the result?

My elderly relatives never were alone like that, I’m sure many other posters attest to the love and care they put into their elderly family members.

Who here would admit to dumping family members in an elderly ward? Likely the same sort of people that dump animals when they are inconvenient and kick their kids out of the house before they are ready to go.

But that’s just a thought.

It was to see if people agreed that having children is a risk, and more of a risk than, for example getting married or even moving to a different country

To answer OP’s question, yes, I do think it is a bigger risk.

There’s a small risk you will have a child with several physical or behavioural abnormalities that can’t be caught with scans.

You read some desperate stories about families dealing with that. I do know people that would have had better lives without one (usually it’s just one) of their kids.

But most have had their lives enriched.

So many parents are at such pains to tell the childfree by choice how much they will regret it. But most of them are happy to risk possible future regret rather than regret having a child. So I don’t think it’s about risk aversion.

But I think most people don't see the two regrets as equal/equally likely. 'It's better to regret the things you did than the things you didn't' is a saying - I personally think a silly one, but it's popular. In my own case I knew as a fact I'd regret not having a child, because I really wanted one, so it wasn't an equal risk to the possibility that I would regret having one. But I just don't think having a child is ever going to be a logical decision so seeing it as a conscious risk-calculation isn't realistic.

@MangoFeverDream

Worked on a hospital ward for the elderly. No-one was visiting these patients. I did all sorts of shifts. Almost every one had children but you'd never know it. They were long term "bed-blockers" (horrible term) waiting for a nursing home placement after falls. There for months. No visitors. None!!!!

Considering all the estranged children you read about on MN and beyond, perhaps it’s no mystery. A lot of bad parenting, and this is the result?

My elderly relatives never were alone like that, I’m sure many other posters attest to the love and care they put into their elderly family members.

Who here would admit to dumping family members in an elderly ward? Likely the same sort of people that dump animals when they are inconvenient and kick their kids out of the house before they are ready to go.

But that’s just a thought.

Even if we are not incontinent now, ageing itself can affect continence of women with and without children. The thing is, it tends to be worse in elderly women who have had children by VB, even though they may not have had continence issues after their baby, hence why elderly women suffer from incontinence more than men.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3163937070*//

Results: In nulliparous and cesarean-delivered women, the prevalence of symptomatic prolapse was relatively similar and below 5% across ages 40-64 years. In contrast, in women after vaginal delivery, there was an accelerating increase in the prevalence of symptomatic genital prolapse up to 65 years of age. Estimated probability from the regression model increased 4-fold, from 3.8% at 40 years to 13.4% at 64 years of age. The observed induction period associated with 1 vaginal delivery seemed to be at least 20 years among women giving birth in their early 20s. At age 64 years, the estimated probability of symptomatic prolapse was 12 times higher after vaginal delivery compared with cesarean deliery (13.4% [95% confidence interval, 9.4-18.9] vs 1.1% [95% confidence interval, 0.4-2.5], P < .0001). The calculated reduction of symptomatic prolapse by cesarean delivery at 64 years of age was thus 92%.

Conclusion: In this national matched cohort study, the interaction between vaginal delivery and aging was the most important factor for the occurrence of symptomatic prolapse. Because the effect of aging can be modified only to a small extent, preventive strategies for genital prolapse should focus on how to avoid the adverse events related to a vaginal delivery.

https://www.startribune.com/can-you-force-adult-children-to-visit-aging-parents/241813071//_

Can You Force Adult Children to Visit Aging Parents?

By Nancy Wurtzel JANUARY 24, 2014 — 8:39AM

When my mom was still alive, my sister and I often visited her in assisted living and later in memory care. Many times, we would be the only outside visitor.
In fact, there were many residents whose family didn’t visit them. Sitting hour-after-hour in the lobby, these aging seniors would watch the front entrance intently. They looked as though they were constantly waiting. Waiting for someone who rarely or never came to visit.
Their waiting and obvious loneliness made me incredibly sad.
Where were their family members? It seemed many adult children simply settled their parent or parents into the care home and then never looked back. They convinced themselves (or tried to convince themselves) that all the needs of their loved one would now be satisfied.
While it’s true the physical needs can most often be fulfilled in a care home, emotional needs may not. Residents in care homes still require advocates in their lives. They desire and need a continual emotional connection to family, friends and others.
What I call the “affection-connection” is important for all humans — no matter the age.
What can be done about the elderly who are disconnected from their families? Can we force adult children to spend more face-to-face time with their aging parents? Can affection for your parents be legislated?
Last year, China tried to do just that by passing a law requiring children to take more financial and spiritual responsibility for their elderly parents or risk being fined or sued. While the law is probably more symbolic than an actual legal threat, it was obviously designed to send a message to the Chinese citizens: Step up and take responsibility for your parents.
Personally, I was surprised to learn that elder neglect is a problem in China. I viewed China as having a deep, engrained respect for the aged. However, these traditional family values are changing, even in this ancient land.
Like much of the world, the population in China is graying, and the country will have an estimated 221 million people over the age of 60 by the year 2015.
China’s policy of limiting families to a single child has had a huge effect on the family structure. With a smaller generation of younger people, there are significantly fewer children to shoulder the care for aging parents. Combine this with the Chinese economy, which has been undergoing explosive economic growth in recent years, pushing many young adults to pursue education in large cities and later lucrative jobs — often requiring long hours — in locale’s often far away from their parents. Finally, most Chinese retirees have a tiny pension, if at all, which means they cannot afford to travel to see their family.
These factors in China lead to an ever growing number of aging, poor and lonely parents. Hence the “Elderly Rights Law,” which made headlines around the world.
I don’t advocate any U.S. laws to force children to visit their parents. But I have to wonder about a society in which adult children will hand off their responsibilities to paid workers at a care home, and then see their parents rarely or not at all.
It’s heartbreaking to see those people waiting in the lobby. Don’t forget, the years roll by and soon that could be you watching the front door and longing for family.

My posts are a mess sorry