aibu to feel heartbroken by our Conservative govt -

[fuschia2000]

their ineptitude during covid19 costing many thousands of lives... their corruption privatisation of health service appointing cronies in top jobs at bbc defunding of education health transport over past decade their living parallel lives with private education, private health, private travel, multiple homes.... their arrogance and lack of decency is heartbreaking breathtaking and they have 80 seat majority with many years before general election....

I’ve never voted Tory either but dint think Any other party would have done any better during this.

Any government are damned if they do and damned if they don’t.

I'm pleased they've got a few million injection into Grimsby as at one point they were asking for a 'special deal' exempt from the Brexit they had voted for.

I think that was 2017 - ok now following the UK - Norway - Iceland trade continuity deal signed in April last year (from what I understand);

www.business-live.co.uk/economic-development/seafood-shippers-confident-brexit-wont-17096441

YABVU

The alternative would have been Corbyn, Abbot etc. Are you seriously saying that they'd be more competent than the current shower? I have no love for Boris and his cronies, but anyone who thinks Corbyn & Abbot would do a better job is deluded.

We have the best of a bad choice. Just like the USA.

At least we have some hope in that Starmer is far more likely to win the next election and may well turn out to be halfway competent.

We've had a succession of incompetents for the last 20 years and we really need a change next time. I hope that the Corbyn and Boris fiasco will knock some sense into the main political parties that they have to start electing serious/competent MPs as leaders.

@alltheusernamesarealreadytaken

Hmm no I don't think anyone is a lesser person. Please don't accuse me of that, it's not very nice.

@OlympicProcrastinator

I'm sick and tired of being told I have to 'understand' them, and 'listen' to them. I've been listening to fuck-all else for 4 years now. And I'm sick of it.

I doubt it. You’ve been listening to media. I doubt many people on here understand the people who are being caught up by right wing extremism or understand at all.

Then again. It’s not your job so.

This looks a bit like ‘let’s listen to the people who are getting into right-wing extremism because it reflects their easily-stoked racist leanings’ — if you’ve been brought up that racism and fascism are just wrong, it’s bloody tough to hear that you need to be listening and learning.

Not saying it’s not worth trying to understand what’s going on but I prefer to look at the people doing the stoking. And if you fall for their line....I’m sorry but it simply isn’t very bright. Yes you’ve been manipulated but you’ve still thought about things and gone ‘life’s not great for me but some foreign cunts are trying to make it worse’ and that is not clever.

Yorkshirelass04

No! I’m sorry I’m not being very articulate here. I think Brexit and the conservative government are both bad choices to be clear.

My issue is the attitudes I see on here are reflective of a wider problem, in particular under Corbyn and momentum’s leadership (I have hopes for Sir Kier.) The idea that certain groups of people ‘don’t know what’s best for them’ and that ‘they should be educated out of ignorance’ with no sense of irony that A) actually THEY could educate YOU because you don’t hear their voices, do not actually know what is best for them and actually, it’s disingenuous virtue signalling to say you voted for ‘other people not yourself’ when you revel in others misery because they didn’t do what you think is best for them.

When I say ‘you’ please understand I am talking in general terms about general attitudes.

The red wall don’t give a crap about ‘wokeness’ etc. Even the language that is used in political conversations is now class based and exclusionary. I believe that labours entire attitude and the wider sneering that I see continuing today played a huge part in Brexit. It is not just those who falsely believed the Torys cared about them who should shoulder the blame. And continuing divisions are going to make the problems worse as I think hard right and far left groups are becoming more extreme.

I have no love for Boris and his cronies, but anyone who thinks Corbyn & Abbot would do a better job is deluded

It’s hard to imagine how anyone could do worse than Johnson.

if you’ve been brought up that racism and fascism are just wrong, it’s bloody tough to hear that you need to be listening and learning

I know that is tough to hear. But how do we as people make change. Do we

A) Call them thick racists and scream at them? Explain how that helps?

B) Be humble and appreciate that your world view, just like theirs has been inherited through parents, society etc etc and you are no better. You are not necessarily more intelligent although the views you hear may seem that way to you. Perhaps your views might seem utterly devoid of common sense to them. Also, it is interesting that you have fallen into the troupe of ‘all tories are racist’. Would you also think ‘all people who vote Labour are sexist anti semites?’ That is a narrow and (forgive me) but not very intelligent sounding either.

Please let me introduce you to Darryl Davis. My hero. Please take the time to read about him if you are at all genuinely interested in making changes to society.

I’m sorry this is all a bit garbled. I’m struggling to explain. The (old) Labour Party is very White Saviour. Very privileged, highly exclusionary. If they and their supporters think they know best and treat others as ‘less than’ then it is in fact they, ‘who reap what they sow’.

@OlympicProcrastinator Ok, I see what you're saying.

But what do I do? Not think about what might be better for the less fortunate and make a judgement based on my understanding of politics and the economy?

Why don't I just vote Tory (which would make me wealthier) and assume that other people will take care of themselves?

You're damned if you care, you're dammed if you don't.

What the Tories have done so well is pretending that they give a shit about most people who live ordinary lives. And they’ve even convinced those people to vote for them because “personal responsibility innit”. Etc.

Personally, I believe in personal responsibility but I also believe in giving people a step up, to put them in a position to be able to take personal responsibility (accepting where that may not always be possible).

But I don’t believe the Tories are the champions of that. They’re too quick to create divide, to pit groups of people against each other. And, ironically, they do not take responsibility for their failures. Never.

So yes it’s heartbreaking but the Tories are greedy, small minded, mother fuckers and I haven’t seen evidence to suggest.

As for the white saviour point - look at the whole British empire mindset. Still see that in the Tories. They feel that they did a great job in the colonies and god forbid it was the British who fucked over these countries. As if these countries were in a dire state before the empire came along. They weren’t.

Of course you should vote for who you think is the best person for the job. I certainly do NOT believe that person is Johnson. My reason for posting is the frustration of continually seeing people mock, belittle, and give off the ‘serves those racist thickos right’.

I feel there is a sense of irony as it’s not a very intelligent thing to lump people all together. And it’s that attitude from labour towards its core voters that lost it for them. So it’s actually all of us who are ‘reaping it’. But all the blame is put squarely at the doors of ‘others.’

The left has changed to be something unrecognisable to me in the last 15 years. The language and aggression, the classism. The idea that everyone in one way or another is a victim of a ‘system’ and that overthrowing that system will make all our problems vanish. No personal responsibility. But most of all, no discussion, no coming together. It’s ‘right think, right speak’ or your opinion has no value.

When people are forced out of the conversation who comes sweeping in to pick them up? Extremists groups that’s who.

While there is room for conversation there is no room for violence.

Or in this case, the conservative government swept them up.

@OlympicProcrastinator

if you’ve been brought up that racism and fascism are just wrong, it’s bloody tough to hear that you need to be listening and learning

I know that is tough to hear. But how do we as people make change. Do we

A) Call them thick racists and scream at them? Explain how that helps?

B) Be humble and appreciate that your world view, just like theirs has been inherited through parents, society etc etc and you are no better. You are not necessarily more intelligent although the views you hear may seem that way to you. Perhaps your views might seem utterly devoid of common sense to them. Also, it is interesting that you have fallen into the troupe of ‘all tories are racist’. Would you also think ‘all people who vote Labour are sexist anti semites?’ That is a narrow and (forgive me) but not very intelligent sounding either.

Please let me introduce you to Darryl Davis. My hero. Please take the time to read about him if you are at all genuinely interested in making changes to society.

I’m sorry this is all a bit garbled. I’m struggling to explain. The (old) Labour Party is very White Saviour. Very privileged, highly exclusionary. If they and their supporters think they know best and treat others as ‘less than’ then it is in fact they, ‘who reap what they sow’.

I don’t call them thick racists and I don’t scream, but I find engagement extremely difficult. (I’m talking about family members here.) I disengage and I vote for who I think will NOT espouse those views. I don’t even think that’s very controversial.

I’m from an old Labour background and everything I have in my life is due to post-war Labour governments, yada yada yada, you know the drill. An imperfect party but if you are voting for the best outcomes for the biggest number of citizens, there is no alternative. And imperfect though they are, troubled though they have certainly been, there is no equivalence between them and UKIP.

It’s worth thinking about why people turn to fascism, of course it is, but partly it is something lacking in them educationally or morally, because we’ve been there, we know this stuff backwards, it is taught in schools, yet it is happening again.

Please understand I’m not defending the tories just the people who voted for them. Even though many of them would hate me. Screaming at them and telling them ‘it serves you right’ as things collapse around them to my mind seems extraordinarily unproductive. What are we actually trying to achieve by more division exactly?

[quote Yorkshirelass04]@OlympicProcrastinator Ok, I see what you're saying.

But what do I do? Not think about what might be better for the less fortunate and make a judgement based on my understanding of politics and the economy?

Why don't I just vote Tory (which would make me wealthier) and assume that other people will take care of themselves?

You're damned if you care, you're dammed if you don't. [/quote]
Nobody is telling you to vote Tory.

BTW how do you think it would make you wealthier - are you a hedge fund manager?

The point is hating the "other tribe" actually makes it easier for them.

@Hingeandbracket

The Labour government would tax me more. I vote to pay more tax, with pleasure.

lacking in them educationally or morally

If you approach people with that prejudice then that’s exactly how they will behave. You find people how you see them.

www.ted.com/talks/daryl_davis_what_do_you_do_when_someone_just_doesn_t_like_you/transcript?language=en

I’ll just leave this here. I think I’ve waffled I’ve enough. I hope it inspires one person to stop fighting fire with fire and hate with hate.

@OlympicProcrastinator I can relate to what you are saying, but there is an implication that we are all equally and jointly responsible for the Tory government and Brexit.

The people who didn't vote for them aren't responsible. I get the bit about sneering middle classes, but if I'm casting my vote in good faith because I care about small children having fair chances in life how am I responsible for it not happening?

@OlympicProcrastinator

I'm sick and tired of being told I have to 'understand' them, and 'listen' to them. I've been listening to fuck-all else for 4 years now. And I'm sick of it.

I doubt it. You’ve been listening to media. I doubt many people on here understand the people who are being caught up by right wing extremism or understand at all.

Then again. It’s not your job so.

You have absolutely no concept of what 'my job' is or who I talk to. Your generalisations are no more legitimate than mine are!

I take your points about creating extra division. But why is my frustration and anger about what is happening to this country less important than that of someone who voted for a right-wing party?

[quote Yorkshirelass04]@Hingeandbracket

The Labour government would tax me more. I vote to pay more tax, with pleasure. [/quote]
I know it's a point of detail but Tory governments are very good at pretending they have "lower taxes" but it's often true.

Who would have imagined, for example that the overall burden of taxation, both in real terms but also as a percentage of GDP, actually increased during the Thatcher years?

I voted Labour last time (green the election before) but I'd be surprised to wealthier under the Tories, so for me it's an easy choice, although I am extremely unlikely to vote Tory (I never have so far).

@OlympicProcrastinator

lacking in them educationally or morally

If you approach people with that prejudice then that’s exactly how they will behave. You find people how you see them.

Perhaps we spend time with different sub-groups of right-wing proto-fascists. Knowing the ones I do, I stand by these words. They would piss themselves if I tried to analyse where they’d been left behind, they don’t see themselves that way at all. As far as they’re concerned, they hold the power now. A tiny sample I know, but we are not talking about decent people who’ve been disenfranchised through no fault of their own and turned to Farage then the Tories to fill some gap in their lives. They are loving this brave new world where they get to be racists and blame benefit scroungers and fuck us idiots who still think you vote in the interests of those less well off!

[quote Yorkshirelass04]@OlympicProcrastinator I can relate to what you are saying, but there is an implication that we are all equally and jointly responsible for the Tory government and Brexit.

The people who didn't vote for them aren't responsible. I get the bit about sneering middle classes, but if I'm casting my vote in good faith because I care about small children having fair chances in life how am I responsible for it not happening? [/quote]
Yes, this.

I have consistently voted for the losers. How then am I the bad guy?

Pah! Often true above should read often untrue.

I can relate to what you are saying, but there is an implication that we are all equally and jointly responsible for the Tory government and Brexit.
That is how democracy works. We are not responsible for the outcome but we all have to agree to be bound by it - no-one gets a special pass because they voted for something else.
Like you, I have spent large parts of my life being on the losing side.