to think wanting to overthrow capitalism is not an extreme political stance

[chomalungma]

New school guidance issued last week for education.

www.gov.uk/guidance/plan-your-relationships-sex-and-health-curriculum#choosing-resources

Issued last Thursday, the guidance reads: “Schools should not under any circumstances use resources produced by organisations that take extreme political stances on matters.
“Examples of extreme political stances include, but are not limited to: a publicly stated desire to abolish or overthrow democracy, capitalism, or to end free and fair elections, opposition to the right of freedom of speech, freedom of association, freedom of assembly or freedom of religion and conscience

There are alternatives to capitalism. People may not like them, I don't necessarily agree with them - but I don't think it's an extreme political stance to take.

Yet the Government think it is.

Are people who think that there alternatives to capitalism taking an extreme political stance?

We don't have capitalism. We have socialism for the rich. Real capitalism lets failed companies and failed individuals fail, rather than bailing them out or inviting them back to political parties even after they have been kicked out.

There seems to be a number of individuals on this thread who don’t understand the differences between communism and socialism

And there seems to be a number of posters who don’t understand why calls to overthrow
a systems is not the democratic way of doing it.

This is why they keep losing elections. Not because they are beaten by the conservatives, but because they hand it to them.

Going back to the OP - who gets to define what is an extreme view?

There are plenty of things and views that we take for granted now that would in the past be seen as extreme.

And in the future, will they be discussing the fact that capitalism existed and any alternative view to abolish it was seen as extreme.

In the Star Trek universe, there is no capitalism in the Federation. Except for the Ferengi.

Who knows how future societies will function?

Cosmicdoughnut I agree with you on that.

We have a situation where gains are privatised and losses are paid by the taxpayer. This is a bastardisation of capitalism. Once again, we have socialism for the rich - the banks, failed multinationals, tax avoiding landowners.

Mummyoneboy, you are a typical leftie. You can’t have a debate, accusing people of political illiteracy if they don’t agree with you.

@cosmicdoughnut

I agree with you fully.

@cosmicdoughnut - agreed.

The intent is clearly to disallow material supplied by far left organisations, but obviously "far left" is too vague a term so they have settled on a desire to overthrow or abolish capitalism as a more specific criteria. However, this itself is probably still too vague and broad because it could be use to exclude material from more mainstream left wing organisations, depending on how the words "overthrow" and "abolish" are interpreted.

I find it hard to get exercised by this though, given that it apparently only applies to relationship, sex and health education. I can't imagine that The Communist Manifesto is often brought up when teaching kids about safe sex.

@Brioches1

And yet, you are the poster equating the Labour Party with communism. :)

I think more debating clubs should be introduced in schools, to teach people how to listen to their opponents and answer coherently with some supporting arguments, instead of trying to gain superiority through insults.

Star Trek? Are we fifteen?

Animal Farm is typically the text that brings about school age debate. It was a long time ago now, but iirc. I assume it’s still on the curriculum.

Political debate isn’t great because economics teaching is quite scarce in schools. I find a lot of what I read online off as it lacks basic knowledge of economics.

I did study politics a bit as part of my degree but maybe I’m biased and a politics graduate sees it differently.

Generally I’m trying to recall if politics discussion lacked at school.

YANBU.

I am always perplexed and genuinely puzzled by why some people seem frightened of Marxism or even Socialism. I don't understand it.

@Brioches1

And yet, you are the poster using “typical leftie” as an attempted insult when faced with the challenge of articulating the difference between Labour and communism. 😂

I’m out, you and your fictional radical Left private schools and children too fearful to reveal they’re Tories are just too much. 😂

It’s a shame, because it could have been a good discussion with the OP!

@CremeEggThief

YANBU.

I am always perplexed and genuinely puzzled by why some people seem frightened of Marxism or even Socialism. I don't understand it.

I don’t think it’s discussion of the politics alone, more disallowing any propaganda.

You can still have debates on each system in schools I’m sure.

@chomalungma

Capitalism had lifted billions out of poverty, this website and your device wouldn't exist without it either

Could this website have existed without capitalism?

Humans have the ability to make stuff. All the resources are available on the planet.

Thinking that capitalism is the only way of humans progressing is a bit depressing...

It might well be - but wanting to abolish capitalism and thinking that there could be something better is not an extreme political stance that must be banned.

Go live in Venezuela or North Korea or China for a bit OP and then report back.

My family grew up in the Soviet Union and this is the most unreasonable post I've ever seen on here

@CremeEggThief

YANBU.

I am always perplexed and genuinely puzzled by why some people seem frightened of Marxism or even Socialism. I don't understand it.

Because history.

Ffs this thread is bad for my blood pressure.

I think that:

one person's indoctrination is another person's hearing a different point of view

In the same way that one person's extremism is another person's different perspective

And in the same way that one person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter.

Governments can label these ideas as indoctrination, extremism and terrorism. They can leglisate,prevent debate, lock people up etc....

But that doesn't stop them going away,

@CremeEggThief

YANBU.

I am always perplexed and genuinely puzzled by why some people seem frightened of Marxism or even Socialism. I don't understand it.

Perhaps because the various attempts to implement Marxism in the 20th century lead to millions of people dead and even greater numbers of people living under oppressive tyranny?

(Yes, I know, 'true Marxism' hasn't been tried yet.)

My family grew up in the Soviet Union and this is the most unreasonable post I've ever seen on here

That is such binary thinking.

You think that if we don't have capitalism, then we must have communism?

You think that capitalism is the only way humans can make progress?

Humans have made progress since they 'came out of the trees'.

What was the driver for that?

And yet you were the first to comment on my “hard life” without knowing anything about me or my circumstances. Good luck with communism, I am sure you’ll experience it in the next ten years or so, but there won’t be mumsnet to come and cry about it, it will be banned under the new regime.

I work in a Catholic school. Under Pope Francis the church has taken a fairly explicitly anti-capitalist stance. Unbridled capitalism is seen as problematic by the Pope and he’s spoken against it more than once.
I can say fairly confidently that we are going to continue to use materials produced by the church. I think this is so vague as to be ridiculous. An anti-capitalist stance is hardly extreme in itself.

Has the current pope mentioned overthrowing current systems?

The problem is that this is far too general and the judgment of what 'overthrowing capitalism' means is left in the hands of people who are ideologically opposed to non-capitalist systems, or too stupid to understand.

I, for example, consider myself a socialist. I think that small-c capitalism - you know, the small business, up-by-your-bootstraps sort that conservatives pretend to love- is fine. I also know that running national services like healthcare and transport and education for profit is a recipe for disaster, and that a completely unregulated labour market leads to poverty and human slavery. There are several northern European countries that show exactly how well it can work to combine socialism with regulated capitalism. People in these countries are happier and financially better-off by almost every measurable metric.

So, would advocating for the sort of policies that would push us closer to a Nordics-style government be seen as me trying to 'overthrow capitalism'? Who gets to decide that? How do we know they even understand what capitalism is (hint - it's not the opposite of socialism).