to think wanting to overthrow capitalism is not an extreme political stance

[chomalungma]

New school guidance issued last week for education.

www.gov.uk/guidance/plan-your-relationships-sex-and-health-curriculum#choosing-resources

Issued last Thursday, the guidance reads: “Schools should not under any circumstances use resources produced by organisations that take extreme political stances on matters.
“Examples of extreme political stances include, but are not limited to: a publicly stated desire to abolish or overthrow democracy, capitalism, or to end free and fair elections, opposition to the right of freedom of speech, freedom of association, freedom of assembly or freedom of religion and conscience

There are alternatives to capitalism. People may not like them, I don't necessarily agree with them - but I don't think it's an extreme political stance to take.

Yet the Government think it is.

Are people who think that there alternatives to capitalism taking an extreme political stance?

Unbridled capitalism is seen as problematic by the Pope and he’s spoken against it more than once

That's true - and I guess that capitalism is on a spectrum, just like other forms of society.

It's not just capitalism or communism. There is a whole spectrum of systems. So yes - what does 'abolishing' capitalism even look like - considering we don't have pure capitalism in the UK.

The Pope

VATICAN CITY (ChurchMilitant.com) - Pope Francis is convening an international summit of young economists in Assisi to re-examine the current model of capitalism — what he terms the "economy of exclusion" — and to "find answers to the structural problems of the global economy."
Modeled on the example of St. Francis of Assisi, the pontiff wants the conference to work towards creating "a different kind of economy: one that brings life not death, one that is inclusive and not exclusive, humane and not dehumanizing, one that cares for the environment and does not despoil it."

The March 26–28 forum, which has been dubbed a "papal anti-Davos," will bring together 2,000 students, academics and socially conscious entrepreneurs from more than 45 countries to explore alternatives to the free-market capitalist system.

Delegates will work towards correcting "models of growth incapable of guaranteeing respect for the environment, openness to life, concern for the family, social equality, the dignity of workers and the rights of future generations."

So not anti - capitalist - but looking at capitalism and re-examining how it works for all people.

It does say looking at alternatives to capitalism, which surely implies considering abolishing it?

SallySeven - Depends on the definition of “overthrow”. He hasn’t urged people to rise up in armed revolt, if that’s what you mean but he has repeatedly attacked the current capitalist system. In 2015 he said “This system is by now intolerable: farm workers find it intolerable, laborers find it intolerable, communities find it intolerable, peoples find it intolerable … The earth itself – our sister, Mother Earth, as Saint Francis would say – also finds it intolerable.”

I wish those going on and on about capitalism being bad could spend a week living in USSR.

OK, swap you for a week living in a capitalist Nairobi slum. We’ll see which is preferable for people at the bottom of the heap.

@Stripesgalore

It does say looking at alternatives to capitalism, which surely implies considering abolishing it?

So that surely means that any Catholic teaching material should be banned from schools as it comes from an organisation whose head is calling for the abolishment of capitalism*

Has anyone told Rees Mogg?

*That is one extreme version of the guidelines

Probably Nairobi, at least you won’t be sent to prison if you don’t work or forced to work in mines for free..

OK, swap you for a week living in a capitalist Nairobi slum. We’ll see which is preferable for people at the bottom of the heap

I read an interesting article about Sweden today. People talk about Sweden and its approach to lockdown. What's rarely mentioned is the Swedish approach to its people, the security, the role of Government and looking after people through its money system and State intervention

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/sep/26/welcome-to-libertarian-covid-fantasy-land-thats-sweden-to-you-and-me

"Take two people: one living in Malmö, the other in Manchester. When a Swede loses his or her job they are entitled to up to 80% of their previous salary for the first 200 days of inactivity – up to 910 krona (£78) a day for the first 100 days – dropping to 70% (to a maximum of 760 krona a day) for the next 100 days. Danes who are members of unemployment insurance funds can claim up to 90%. As importantly, Sweden is “the best place in the world to lose your job” because employers pay a levy to job security councils whose coaches seek you out and match your skills and ambitions with the market"

There are different ways of doing capitalism. Of doing society. We are lucky not to live in some of the countries where you are left to your own devices come what may.

I wish those going on about the evils of socialism could live for one month in Finland. Or anywhere that still has a functioning welfare state and doesn't allow billionaires to live tax-free.

You think capitalist countries don’t have arbitrary detention? Lol.

According to Soviet ideology, Russia was in the transition from capitalism to socialism (referred to interchangeably under Lenin as the dictatorship of the proletariat), socialism being the intermediate stage to communism, with the latter being the final stage which follows after socialism.

A lesson from Russia - making other people poorer won’t make you richer. You just get more people fighting over scarce resources while the ruling class enjoys the perks.

Depends what you are proposing to replace it with and how you mean to ‘overthrow’ it.

In absence of any clarity on that YABVU.

In absence of any clarity on that YABVU

I am not sure you have read the OP or the discussion properly.

This is about school guidance that puts organisations that want to abolish capitalism in the same 'domain' as groups who want to overthrow democracy and those who don't want free and fair elections.

Does that seem right?

Democracy is important
Free and fair elections are important

Should capitalism stand alongside those 2 as well?

Of course making other people poorer makes you richer. It’s disaster capitalism. The people behind Brexit stand to get very rich from the country being impoverished.

Free and fair elections would be a great idea, I agree FPTP not so much.

“With socialism, all legal production and distribution decisions are made by the government, with individuals dependent on the state for food, employment, healthcare and everything else. The government, rather than the free market, determines the amount of output, or supply and the pricing levels of these goods and services.”

Why would you like to surrender your freedom to the state? How do you know that people in charge are going to have your interests at heart? This is bonkers! I think people that lived all their lives in the west don’t realise what they are wishing for..

Overthrowing an entire economic system is of course extreme. Whether or not it would be agreeable is entirely a different matter.

You can’t pick and choose, you can’t have a socialist state without surrendering your freedoms and decision making to the state. Otherwise it won’t be socialism. You need a ruling body that makes decision for the whole population and to be able to do that they have to be protected from revolt/elections etc. It has to be a dictatorship in order to be able to inforce the rules.

OP, which of the points you quoted in your opening post do you agree with?

“Examples of extreme political stances include, but are not limited to: a publicly stated desire to abolish or overthrow democracy, capitalism, or to end free and fair elections, opposition to the right of freedom of speech, freedom of association, freedom of assembly or freedom of religion and conscience"

Do you support democracy? Do you support free and fair elections? Do you support freedom of speech, association and assembly, freedom of religion and conscience? Do you think these are preserves of "capitalism"? What are the alternatives to supporting these things?

Capitalism has successfully lifted billions out of poverty wherever it replaced the alternative. Ask those that lived behind the iron curtain for 70 years.

Capitalism may have raised a few out of poverty (depending on how you measure it) but at the cost of decimating the planet for everyone else, especially future generations.

The fact is we're barrelling along towards our absolute ruin. As things stand we're looking at everything between the 45 north and 45 south becoming pretty much uninhabitable, resulting in the displacement of billions and the loss of most of our food and resource producing land. Unless we shift out of our capitalist mindset immediately the next generation or so are fucked. But hey as long as Mr & Mrs Smith can consume, consume ,consume right now who gives a fuck about those to come right?

@Brioches1 that's not socialism. Where did you find that definition?

Democracy doesn't have to be ruled by capitalism Rojava

However the US, UK, Turkey and Russia are all complicit in wanting that system "overthrown".

Sorry, I should have added - socialism has different 'flavours' just like any other philosophy or form of government, but at its heart it means that the means of production should be regulated and managed by the people who do the work, rather than purely for the benefit of the ruling financial class. This is managed not by a dictatorial government but by the people, who may choose to form a government to represent them if that makes things a bit more efficient. You know, through voting, elections, that sort of thing. You may recognise the concept from 'democracy', which is perfectly compatible with socialism.