to think wanting to overthrow capitalism is not an extreme political stance

[chomalungma]

New school guidance issued last week for education.

www.gov.uk/guidance/plan-your-relationships-sex-and-health-curriculum#choosing-resources

Issued last Thursday, the guidance reads: “Schools should not under any circumstances use resources produced by organisations that take extreme political stances on matters.
“Examples of extreme political stances include, but are not limited to: a publicly stated desire to abolish or overthrow democracy, capitalism, or to end free and fair elections, opposition to the right of freedom of speech, freedom of association, freedom of assembly or freedom of religion and conscience

There are alternatives to capitalism. People may not like them, I don't necessarily agree with them - but I don't think it's an extreme political stance to take.

Yet the Government think it is.

Are people who think that there alternatives to capitalism taking an extreme political stance?

@Walkaround

I don't disagree with any of that. I wouldn't argue that capitalism is anything other than a blunt tool. It cannot replace lots of other social goods and sadly we have lost our way a bit. I absolutely wouldn't dispute that. But none of the points you are making actually suggest we should scrap it as a system - regulate it, yes, refine it, yes, not rely on it to do the work of other important institutions (community, family etc), yes.

This is a great podcast for those who don't like the current system and want to understand where we may have gone wrong....

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000mkv4

And bad people cover up things when they don't want to lose face about regardless of profit motivation/capitalism. Governments also do this sadly. Profit is just one motivation for what is a base/immoral instinct.

And I also think that discussing whether there is a better system than capitalism in theory IS different to discussing how to overthrow it (which implies not a gradual shift, but a likely violent / coercive revolution).

As already pointed out, though, I’m not advocating overthrowing capitalism. I’m not even talking about whether it makes any sense to include warnings against organisations that might want to overthrow capitalism in the middle of guidance on relationships, health and sex education! If I were, I would be actively wondering what organisations the Government has in mind which produce anti-capitalist sex education leaflets, because they sound intriguing!

Then we agree I think : )

Maybe jihadi literature?

The point was OP that you can't use the kids in school to recruit for your organisations plan to destroy capitalism.

No one is saying you can't hold it as a goal. Really this should be obvious.

What this is about is certain groups pushing their agendas into schools. That's not what schools are for.

I reckon maybe it is aimed at Islamic extremism - that would encompass very strong opinions on matters of sex and relationships and what they might view as corrupt, decadent western societies where charging interest, etc, is not considered sinful.

That feels like political indoctrination.

@Pepperwort - we have more rights now than we had in the past. You said that employment rights had been eroded to nothing over the last 20 years. That’s not true. We have absolutely loads of employment rights we didn’t use to - minimum wage, working time, holiday pay, etc. It’s much better than it was but it’s still a balance between employees and employers rights as it should be (although I’m not saying the balance is struck right in every case).

It is of course illegal not to pay people at least the minimum wage for their work so your example of people now apparently being forced to work unpaid is not at all legal. Life is not easy for many but don’t kid yourself that it was necessarily easier in the past, it wasn’t.

People here seem a bit confused though that poverty or crime is something to do with capitalism. Rule of law is still required in capitalist societies. Many economists believe that capitalism needs effective regulation to make it work properly but that doesn’t make it no longer capitalism.

@CayrolBaaaskin - and some other people here seem confused between socialism and socialist ideas, and claim mixed economies are capitalist. I don’t think you can really argue that the NHS is regulated capitalism, or that furlough schemes are the exercise of capitalist principles, or that bank bailouts are capitalism in action. They are all acknowledgements of the failings of capitalism, of the need to prop it up from time to time, of the areas of public life where capitalism falls down, regulated or not; where capitalism is not enough, or not the only tool in the toolbox.

@chomalungma

Funny how those that bear the fruits of capitalism the most tend to range against it. What do they call it....ah yes virtue signalling

Not saying I think capitalism is right or wrong.

Is wanting to overthrow it an extreme political act?

Yes overthrowing the basis of your entire country is fairly extreme.

@CayrolBaaaskin I think you are either comparing now to very early periods, or trying to maintain that codifications on paper are in any way relevant to the rights and customs in play in actual reality. I am comparing what is actually happening in reality to what was happening in reality 20 - 25 years ago, which I have direct experience of (and talking to those who have experience of 10-20 years before that) and the normality of daily experience is now much worse.

As it is extreme, it’s unlikely to happen unless things are going extremely badly. Climate change, pandemics, gross inequality, increased migration from undesirable or uninhabitable parts of the world, diminishing resources and unrealistic expectations all threaten stability and could result in extreme acts, none of which are likely to help the situation. Yet still we seem incapable of dealing effectively with any of them - I get the feeling too many people for too many years sat back and waited for capitalist innovation to happen, whilst capitalists focused on innovating in ways that kept exacerbating the problems. Capitalist innovation is opportunistic. We sometimes need innovation that is more planned, more expensive, less immediately (if ever) profitable.

Funny how Capitalism can always bail itself out by printing more money.

@annabel85 - that’s capitalist innovation . It’s all about confidence, not reality, anyway. So long as the financial markets are confident, we are all allowed to carry on. If the financial markets decide the emperor is wearing no clothes after all, we all flounder.

If the financial markets decide the emperor is wearing no clothes after all, we all flounder.

The financial markets/banks collapse every generation and get bailed out by the taxpayer.

Well, the Emperor’s clothes always were ultimately paid for by his subjects.

we have more rights now than we had in the past

Can I point out that this Gov is stripping us of a whole load of rights at the end of the year. They also have the eyes on our Human Rights.

We sometimes need innovation that is more planned, more expensive, less immediately (if ever) profitable

Planned innovation? It doesn’t work like that.

Climate change, pandemics, gross inequality, increased migration from undesirable or uninhabitable parts of the world, diminishing resources and unrealistic expectations all threaten stability

Socialism could never hope to solve these problems. The biggest poverty reduction programme ever was when the Chinese government moved from Socialism to Capitalism, unleashing the huge potential of the Chinese people. I lived there and saw the massive improvements in people’s everyday lives in just ten years.

Good grief, freedom really is wasted on the free! Capitalism is far from perfect, but it pays for stuff.

There is a good argument for teaching the rights and wrongs of capitalism in schools (OP clearly has a very poor understanding of it and would obviously have benefitted from some proper education on the subject) however groups whose raison d'être is the overthrow of capitalism tend to be extremists, often promoting the use of violence to further their aim, whose material and resources should not be used in our schools, which is what this guidance is actually saying.

@MangoFeverDream - where did I suggest Socialism could solve those problems? I’m simply pointing out that capitalism is not the be all and end all - a conclusion capitalist countries have clearly come to, even if you seem to be having a hard time getting your head around that.

When it comes to “planned innovation”, though, I think you’ll find universities are always quite happy to accept more investment in research into possibly unprofitable ventures! Likewise, drugs companies, if you want them to try to find new antibiotics or alternative methods of fighting infection.

In other words, “planned innovation” was a rather poor way of expressing the idea that sometimes state support is required in projects that are too speculative for private enterprise alone, but where there is an urgent need for progress.

@TonTonMacoute - yes, but that’s a much more boring thing to talk about than the general rights and wrongs of capitalism, which is what the thread was then hijacked to talk about!

I’m simply pointing out that capitalism is not the be all and end all - a conclusion capitalist countries have clearly come to

Who has come to that conclusion exactly? Reason many capitalist countries can even have a robust welfare system is due to the wealth they generate.

even if you seem to be having a hard time getting your head around that

Lol ok

When it comes to “planned innovation”, though, I think you’ll find universities are always quite happy to accept more investment in research into possibly unprofitable ventures! Likewise, drugs companies

Investment does not guarantee any sort of result. You cannot plan innovation. Government can pour taxpayer money into certain ventures, but are they the best judges of where it should go? (They aren’t)