to think wanting to overthrow capitalism is not an extreme political stance

[chomalungma]

New school guidance issued last week for education.

www.gov.uk/guidance/plan-your-relationships-sex-and-health-curriculum#choosing-resources

Issued last Thursday, the guidance reads: “Schools should not under any circumstances use resources produced by organisations that take extreme political stances on matters.
“Examples of extreme political stances include, but are not limited to: a publicly stated desire to abolish or overthrow democracy, capitalism, or to end free and fair elections, opposition to the right of freedom of speech, freedom of association, freedom of assembly or freedom of religion and conscience

There are alternatives to capitalism. People may not like them, I don't necessarily agree with them - but I don't think it's an extreme political stance to take.

Yet the Government think it is.

Are people who think that there alternatives to capitalism taking an extreme political stance?

@Stripesgalore

Surely the internet mostly exists because of state military development, not capitalism.

‘Raging against capitalism is rooted in uninformed thinking that does not rely in evidence or lessons form history. Which is why Anti capitalists tend to be anarchists.’

I am not convinced you know what an anarchist is.

And I’m not sure you understand how technological advancement penetrates upper echelons of establishment to the masses.

Presumably the groups in question would be communist parties?

You couldn’t, for example, go on a school trip to the People’s History Museum and read the material archived there, or look at their exhibits of trade union banners with Marx embroidered on them?

If that is the kind of thing that they mean that is appalling.

‘And I’m not sure you understand how technological advancement penetrates upper echelons of establishment to the masses.’

That doesn’t even make grammatical sense, never mind bring comprehensible.

@FOJN

I agree with pp, it's the "overthrow" which makes it extreme, not giving consideration to alternatives which could be democratically agreed upon.

There was also the word 'abolish' in there.

Is wanting to abolish capitalism such an extreme idea that materials from organisations who want to abolish it can't be used in schools?

@Stripesgalore

‘And I’m not sure you understand how technological advancement penetrates upper echelons of establishment to the masses.’

That doesn’t even make grammatical sense, never mind bring comprehensible.

Look it up. Even you can figure it out.

The actual statement was abolish or overthrow. So that would exclude any organisation wishing to abolish capitalism through non violent action.

If capitalism is so good, then surely it can stand scrutiny and discussion?

If it's not even allowed to be discussed and alternatives discussed, then what kind of education is that? Doesn't sound much like 'freedom of speech and freedom of thought to me?

Any system like capitalism or communism should be discussed in schools and be open to scrutiny.

It's not like pupils can't find these materials anyway if they want.

Is it so dangerous to the UK for pupils to discuss alternatives to capitalism?

Just a quick Google reveals lots of alternatives out there. It would probably take a massive crisis for things to change.

@sst1234

OP, why has the something better not been found billions of years after man landed on Earth? Is it a conspiracy? Is it because capitalists don’t want it to be found. No, it’s because anything better is just a con that socialists sell to the eternally stupid. Capitalism makes not secret of the fact the equality is not the end goal, in fact equality of outcome is bad. There should be a basic minimum standard that that everyone gets given, anything on top has to be achieved. Socialists on the other hand peddle the equality myth, all the while having their noses in the trough while the horses, donkeys and other farm animals slave away out in the cold.

Now this is just nonsense, human societies existed for hundreds of thousands of years before capitalism became the dominant force of social organisation.

Communists and Anarchists do have children of course. It’s kind of bizarre if you were to go into school and be told that you are banned from looking at any material connected to your family’s political beliefs, particularly considering the length of tradition those beliefs have in this country.

It also feels bizarre given that religion is studied, and that’s full of offensive and seditious things.

Believing that man has been on earth for millions of years is a conspiracy! Have we all been lied to by science?!

And just to empathise:

I am not saying that I think capitalism is wrong. Nor am I saying it is the best thing.

I am simply asking the question - is wanting to abolish capitalism such an extreme stance that it shouldn't be discussed in schools?

Well, both the Nazis and the USSR under Stalin abolished capitalism.

That went well.

The Nazis did not abolish capitalism.

Well, both the Nazis and the USSR under Stalin abolished capitalism

Do you think that discussing alternatives to capitalism - or even discussing issues with capitalism - is an extreme idea that must be banned in schools?

Surely capitalism can be discussed and defended?

Is Animal Farm to be banned?

it doesn't surprise me that schools have now been given this guidance. The crisis isn't Covid. The crisis is capitalism. It is this social system that is driving the destruction of the planet, huge inequalities and unrest.

I am a communist. Both of my children are hard left in their political thinking.

Communism is not about dictatorship. Its direct democracy. It isn't state socialism. The difference is, under communism workers have direct control over the means of production. Under socialism the state has that control.

Of course the state is worried about disent. The capitalist system is crisis prone. But its more than that. If you read the Fragment on Machines in the Grundrisse written by Marx he predicts how technology and automation undermines value, ie undermines the how capitalism is based upon surplus value being created through waged Labour. See also falling rate of profit.

I've read Marx, written on Marx, continue to study and my main interest is in something called immaterial labour.

Do I consider myself an extremist....ah, I dint know. Maybe consult the history books and read about Mccarthyism, or at least read something other than the mainstream right wing press.

I note this guidance doesn't mention populist fascist right wing nut jobs . That's because that is where the state is headed in its desire to save itself!

Abolishing or overthrowIng capitalism Is not the policy of any major U.K. political party, including the Greens, so these policies are well outside the political mainstream. Also, it is decades since a Trotskyite or fascist who advocated revolution was elected to Parliament.

Does that mean they are extreme policies? Depends on your definition of ‘extreme’, I suppose.

This is the statement:

“Schools should not under any circumstances use resources produced by organisations that take extreme political stances on matters.
“Examples of extreme political stances include, but are not limited to: a publicly stated desire to abolish or overthrow democracy, capitalism, or to end free and fair elections, opposition to the right of freedom of speech, freedom of association, freedom of assembly or freedom of religion and conscience.”

So...

1. The Communist Party is a current U.K. political organisation.
2. It advocates for the abolition of Capitalism.
3. It’s materials are kept in the People’s History Museum.
4. Schools use the museum as a resource, viewing the materials and exhibits.

The majority of people are saying YABU to the OP.

Do you think schools should no longer be allowed to visit the PHM? What about outside of school hours? Can a 14 year old visit alone, or should that be banned?

Am I amazed anyone thinks this is okay.

@MiniTheMinx

Communism is not about dictatorship. Its direct democracy.

Is Cuba a communist country?

What is strange is fact that usually it is the privilege university students that want to fight capitalism. Usually their parents are rich capitalists and this is paying for the education.

I'm surprised that people who obviously support capitalism don't seem to think it can stand up to scrutiny and debate in schools.

Cuba is a socialist country.

It’s economy is a mixture of capitalism, socialism and anarchism.

It is democratic at the local level but not at the national level.

It is the only sustainably developed country in the world.

@Stripesgalore

The Nazis did not abolish capitalism.

Seriously?

Yes, seriously. People still ran businesses under Nazi rule.

Why is it that socialists can't see the reason capitalism and democracy with separation of powers works. It is no coincidence that all socialist states fail, because they pretend they somehow have less greedy, venal people in them. They don't. The criticism is that equality of opportunity does not mean equality of outcome. Our system makes no secret of that, its corruption that must be stopped, in any system.