to think wanting to overthrow capitalism is not an extreme political stance

[chomalungma]

New school guidance issued last week for education.

www.gov.uk/guidance/plan-your-relationships-sex-and-health-curriculum#choosing-resources

Issued last Thursday, the guidance reads: “Schools should not under any circumstances use resources produced by organisations that take extreme political stances on matters.
“Examples of extreme political stances include, but are not limited to: a publicly stated desire to abolish or overthrow democracy, capitalism, or to end free and fair elections, opposition to the right of freedom of speech, freedom of association, freedom of assembly or freedom of religion and conscience

There are alternatives to capitalism. People may not like them, I don't necessarily agree with them - but I don't think it's an extreme political stance to take.

Yet the Government think it is.

Are people who think that there alternatives to capitalism taking an extreme political stance?

Right, so socialism is now a extremist view that must be silenced by the most extreme right wing government we've had in living memory?

And I should add that said government simultaneously wants to remove/change the human rights legislation.

I wish those going on and on about capitalism being bad could spend a week living in USSR. It’s naive to think that people having the power won’t try to allocate more resources to themselves and their families. You still won’t have access to resources, but also will live in fear, probably hungry and will be giving up all your freedoms. And forced to do things you don’t want to do. I still remember waiting for two hours in a queue to get our hands on some meat or four hours to buy boots two sizes too big. Or a bottle shampoo being an exotic birthday present..

Or read autobiographies by people who lived in communist China. Or just look at Hong Kong now.

What is happening with the human rights legislation? I thought they wanted us out of ECHR, but we would still be signed up to the international treaties, which are generally subject to more left wing interpretation than ECHR.

I think Scandinavia does alright with their version on capitalism, socialism.

I read a quote once -
Capitalism is like a fire, controlled well it will provide heat and light for all. Left to it's own devices, it will destroy everything in its path.

Whatever one thinks of capitalism in the many forms its taken over the centuries (not billions of years, as a social and economic system, it's just not that old), whether one thinks something is a good idea or not doesn't change is something is a good idea. Someone having a bad idea doesn't make it an extreme idea. It's in part subjective, which is why they had to define what they meant by an extreme political stance.

While most of it is not directly related to relationship, sex, and health education, I can see why schools would be guided to be careful about organizations that take certain political stances when there are other organizations that can provide materials without such an ideological bend.

It does take more issues in other parts of the curriculum as already mentioned. There are many parts of history that we now praise that happened because of then-illegal activities. Law does not equal ethics and neither equals morality, and I wouldn't want a curriculum that mixes them up even though I can see why the government would want that. There is also benefit in analysing varying ideas and propoganda past and present from the source.

@KenDodd

Right, so socialism is now a extremist view that must be silenced by the most extreme right wing government we've had in living memory?

No. You are (deliberately?) misunderstanding the guidance.

If the country wants to elect a socialist government through fair elections, that’s not an extremist group seeking to overthrow capitalism, is it?

Mangled that, I meant that whether it's thought of as a good idea doesn't define if it's an extreme idea.

Capitalism socialism is like a fire, controlled well it will provide heat and light for all. Left to it's own devices, it will destroy everything in its path.

That works too... what it boils down to - imho - is human nature (which can be greedy and selfish).

There seems to be a number of individuals on this thread who don’t understand the differences between communism and socialism.

I suppose there’s no doubt in my mind as to how and why our current government got elected anymore though.

If by socialism you mean Corbyn and Co, then yes, I can’t see much difference between his ideas and the communism.

Mummyoneboy. Look upon it as a teachable moment maybe?!

That fire quote could most certainly apply to communism

Any system relies on regulation etc capitalism included

We’re better off keeping an eye on inequality and trying to mitigate through taxes and so on.

The extent to which will be determined by our vote.

@Brioches1

And that is why we need decent political education in schools.

‘If the country wants to elect a socialist government through fair elections, that’s not an extremist group seeking to overthrow capitalism, is it?‘

The guidance was abolish or overthrow. Some socialists wish to establish social democracies. Some are socialists in the original sense of Socialism being the stepping stone by which full communism will be reached.

The relevant point would presumably be that the stated aims of the Labour Party are not extremist.

People really are hypocritical. What is capitalist about taxpayers bailing out banks, or the minimum wage, or furlough schemes, or lockdowns, or the NHS, or state aid for ailing industries, or tariffs on goods? Pretty much nobody wants pure capitalism. Pure capitalism would be so shit that our inadequate democracies would prevent it.

Mummyoneboy I agree with you. I find most teachers are (often radical) lefties, even in private schools that my children attend, so most of education is presented from the left-leaning angle. So yes, I do agree that my kids should be comfortable to admit to being conservatives, at the moment we told them to pretend they are labour to avoid conflict.

@Brioches1

What a hard life you must lead. 🙄

Mummyoneboy, I have a very stressful life, I am sure you won’t want to swap with me if you knew the details.

At the last general election ds’s school did their own vote for the kids. Some of them voted for Farges party (god I can’t even remember the name of it!).

There was certainly some raised eyebrows when the results came in (I assumed it was a ‘joke’ votes) but that’s how our society works, we choose who we vote for and should not be cowed into agreeing with everyone else. You shouldn’t have to pretend so that you would be bullied. Why can’t people debate?

I think that campaigning for any kind of major changes or reforms can be considered extreme. I don't think that automatically makes them bad or dangerous. It's much more complicated than that. I think it's short sighted of the school to have a blanket ban on these things.

Can anyone name a society which successfully 'overthrew capitalism' and it long term turned out really well for the people?

You can't have a truly 'socialist' society without it essentially being a dictatorship, because it requires preventing people from having the freedom to make anything for themselves.

Still, the form of capitalism we have atm does cement those at the top of the pile in their place, protecting themselves with the threat that any change in the status quo would be bad for everyone, because they’ve got the world nicely stitched up already. Except it’s all coming a bit unstitched with global warming, China, pandemics, etc.

@Brioches1

Oh dear.

Anyway, seeing as this is a discussion on political teaching in schools...

I very much doubt that “radical lefties” are attempting to brainwash your children. It’s unfortunate that you understand so little about the political system in the U.K. that you are frightened of your children learning mild alternatives to your particular favourite.

As I said before, it’s why a decent political education is so vital in schools...