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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think wanting to overthrow capitalism is not an extreme political stance

459 replies

chomalungma · 26/09/2020 21:33

New school guidance issued last week for education.

www.gov.uk/guidance/plan-your-relationships-sex-and-health-curriculum#choosing-resources

Issued last Thursday, the guidance reads: “Schools should not under any circumstances use resources produced by organisations that take extreme political stances on matters.
“Examples of extreme political stances include, but are not limited to: a publicly stated desire to abolish or overthrow democracy, capitalism, or to end free and fair elections, opposition to the right of freedom of speech, freedom of association, freedom of assembly or freedom of religion and conscience

There are alternatives to capitalism. People may not like them, I don't necessarily agree with them - but I don't think it's an extreme political stance to take.

Yet the Government think it is.

Are people who think that there alternatives to capitalism taking an extreme political stance?

OP posts:
goose1964 · 26/09/2020 21:37

No , capitalism has led to most resources being in the hands of a few. Even in this country there are people who struggle for the basics, whilst if he people can afford to spend a weeks rent on an advent calendar. This country's heading rapidly into fascism and capitalism has a lot to do with it.

Pukkatea · 26/09/2020 21:39

I'd say it was somewhat extreme, but it definitely does stand out among those other examples.

Justjoinedforthis · 26/09/2020 21:39

It’s not at all, you are right, and it seems like an odd choice to include in that list.
Saying that though, I’m not sure I can think of an anti capitalist group that would provide resources for schools - happy to be corrected!

Original poster
chomalungma · 26/09/2020 21:40

@Pukkatea

I'd say it was somewhat extreme, but it definitely does stand out among those other examples.
This

I wonder what prompted them to include it?

OP posts:
adawong · 26/09/2020 21:45

the use or endorsement of racist, including antisemitic, language or communications
the encouragement or endorsement of illegal activity
a failure to condemn illegal activities done in their name or in support of their cause, particularly violent actions against people or property
Why did you miss this part out?

Leafyhouse · 26/09/2020 21:45

Depends on whether you want to evolve capitalism or overthrow it I suppose. If it's the latter, then yes I'd agree. Like it or not, capitalism's been around for thousands of years. And attempts to overthrow it in the past have never ended well.

Original poster
chomalungma · 26/09/2020 21:48

Why did you miss this part out

Because those are more of the examples.

Those are just other examples of material that aren't to be used.
The organisation does not have to be all of those - it just has to want to overthrow capitalism to be seen as an extreme political movement.

OP posts:
Original poster
chomalungma · 26/09/2020 21:49

But if you want it:

Examples of extreme political stances include, but are not limited to:
a publicly stated desire to abolish or overthrow democracy, capitalism, or to end free and fair elections

opposition to the right of freedom of speech, freedom of association, freedom of assembly or freedom of religion and conscience

the use or endorsement of racist, including antisemitic, language or communications

the encouragement or endorsement of illegal activity

a failure to condemn illegal activities done in their name or in support of their cause, particularly violent actions against people or property

OP posts:
sst1234 · 26/09/2020 21:50

Funny how those that bear the fruits of capitalism the most tend to range against it. What do they call it....ah yes virtue signalling. Capitalism has successfully lifted billions out of poverty wherever it replaced the alternative. Ask those that lived behind the iron curtain for 70 years.
Now, cue the nonsense “yeah but, not but, yeah but socialism has never been tried properly”.

Original poster
chomalungma · 26/09/2020 21:51

Funny how those that bear the fruits of capitalism the most tend to range against it. What do they call it....ah yes virtue signalling

Not saying I think capitalism is right or wrong.

Is wanting to overthrow it an extreme political act?

OP posts:
CayrolBaaaskin · 26/09/2020 21:54

Tbh “overthrowing capitalism” is really part of overthrowing democracy. To have a command economy you need a dictatorship. So it’s not really that extreme imo. Criticizing capitalism is one thing, “overthrowing” it is something else.

sst1234 · 26/09/2020 21:56

@chomalungma

Funny how those that bear the fruits of capitalism the most tend to range against it. What do they call it....ah yes virtue signalling

Not saying I think capitalism is right or wrong.

Is wanting to overthrow it an extreme political act?

I know I, didn’t mean to suggest you were, was just making a general observation about people who take this line. In answer to your original point, I think yes it is extremist because it is irrational. Like lots of other extremist thinking. Raging against capitalism is rooted in uninformed thinking that does not rely in evidence or lessons form history. Which is why Anti capitalists tend to be anarchists.
Blue565 · 26/09/2020 21:57

Name a democratic society that isn't capitalist?

Capitalism had lifted billions out of poverty, this website and your device wouldn't exist without it either

adawong · 26/09/2020 21:58

overthrow to defeat or remove someone from power, using force
possibly an extreme act?

Original poster
chomalungma · 26/09/2020 21:58

publicly stated desire to abolish or overthrow democracy, capitalism

Not just overthrow. Also abolish.

I don't think it's an extreme idea to abolish capitalism. Maybe there are better alternatives that give more equality.

Or even a world where money isn't the motivation?

OP posts:
Yoloyohol · 26/09/2020 21:59

I think wanting to 'overthrow' it is, as it means remove forcibly from power or to throw further than the intended distance, I think abolishing or replacing is a perfectly valid non extremist desire.

Yoloyohol · 26/09/2020 22:01

As an aside, 'opposition to the right freedom of association, freedom of assembly' is something we're currently living with...

Original poster
chomalungma · 26/09/2020 22:01

Capitalism had lifted billions out of poverty, this website and your device wouldn't exist without it either

Could this website have existed without capitalism?

Humans have the ability to make stuff. All the resources are available on the planet.

Thinking that capitalism is the only way of humans progressing is a bit depressing...

It might well be - but wanting to abolish capitalism and thinking that there could be something better is not an extreme political stance that must be banned.

OP posts:
TheTyrannyOfChoice · 26/09/2020 22:01

Of course it’s an extreme stance. Name one country who’s stated aim was to overthrow capitalism that wasn’t a dictatorship which imprisoned and killed its opponents.

SisyphusDad · 26/09/2020 22:03

'Maybe there are better alternatives'.

Maybe you want to flesh out those alternatives before you unleash chaos that makes Covid look like tea at the Ritz.

sst1234 · 26/09/2020 22:06

OP, why has the something better not been found billions of years after man landed on Earth? Is it a conspiracy? Is it because capitalists don’t want it to be found. No, it’s because anything better is just a con that socialists sell to the eternally stupid. Capitalism makes not secret of the fact the equality is not the end goal, in fact equality of outcome is bad. There should be a basic minimum standard that that everyone gets given, anything on top has to be achieved. Socialists on the other hand peddle the equality myth, all the while having their noses in the trough while the horses, donkeys and other farm animals slave away out in the cold.

Original poster
chomalungma · 26/09/2020 22:06

@SisyphusDad

'Maybe there are better alternatives'.

Maybe you want to flesh out those alternatives before you unleash chaos that makes Covid look like tea at the Ritz.

What would happen if we went to a new planet and colonised it?

What kind of system could evolve to ensure that that colony survives and makes progress?

It's not extreme to think about such things.

I am not saying I agree with it. I am saying that I don't think it's an extreme political stance that means that schools can't use materials from such groups in school.

Not that I can think of such groups.

OP posts:
Original poster
chomalungma · 26/09/2020 22:07

OP, why has the something better not been found billions of years after man landed on Earth? Is it a conspiracy

Is it an extreme political stance to want to abolish it?

I wonder if it was an extreme political stance in the Soviet Union to want to abolish communism?

OP posts:
Stripesgalore · 26/09/2020 22:12

Surely the internet mostly exists because of state military development, not capitalism.

‘Raging against capitalism is rooted in uninformed thinking that does not rely in evidence or lessons form history. Which is why Anti capitalists tend to be anarchists.’

I am not convinced you know what an anarchist is.

FOJN · 26/09/2020 22:14

I agree with pp, it's the "overthrow" which makes it extreme, not giving consideration to alternatives which could be democratically agreed upon.