to think wanting to overthrow capitalism is not an extreme political stance

[chomalungma]

New school guidance issued last week for education.

www.gov.uk/guidance/plan-your-relationships-sex-and-health-curriculum#choosing-resources

Issued last Thursday, the guidance reads: “Schools should not under any circumstances use resources produced by organisations that take extreme political stances on matters.
“Examples of extreme political stances include, but are not limited to: a publicly stated desire to abolish or overthrow democracy, capitalism, or to end free and fair elections, opposition to the right of freedom of speech, freedom of association, freedom of assembly or freedom of religion and conscience

There are alternatives to capitalism. People may not like them, I don't necessarily agree with them - but I don't think it's an extreme political stance to take.

Yet the Government think it is.

Are people who think that there alternatives to capitalism taking an extreme political stance?

I’m sure there was a thread on here about BLM UK organisation and ending of capitalism

So no resources produced by them then

and you think that overthrowing the economic system which has produced more material benefits than any other is a reasonable position which should be taught in schools. By militant lobbyists

Clearly you haven't got critical thinking.

Go back and read what I have written and think carefully.

At NO point have I said I am in favour of an alternative to capitalism.
At NO point have I said I am in favour of capitalism.

What do you think I am trying to say in this OP?

Read carefully, think critically and then reflect on your statement.

I immediately read it as a caution on Black Lives Matter - i think the majority of people supporting the phrase don’t realise it’s not just a statement of fact, it’s the name of a specific political party which believes (amongst other things) in the overthrown of capitalism

See pg4 here
m4bl.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/CutMilitaryExpendituresOnePager.pdf

I assume the govt is worried about kids being radicalised as they are about any new political movement, although i personally think that any political belief that begins with “and you have to give up your phones” has little chance of gaining traction with the majority of the 13-25 age group.

I agree OP that it is somewhat problematic that teachers can't use materials from anti-capitalist organisations as part of class discussion about the pros and cons of capitalism. It is important that children read such primary resources on both sides of the argument for themselves rather than someone else's interpretation, which can lead to huge misinterpretations and misrepresentations.

It talks about resources from active organisations not disallowing books on topics

Of course it is extreme. We live in a capitalist country. The opposite is communism.

@sevencontinents

I agree OP that it is somewhat problematic that teachers can't use materials from anti-capitalist organisations as part of class discussion about the pros and cons of capitalism. It is important that children read such primary resources on both sides of the argument for themselves rather than someone else's interpretation, which can lead to huge misinterpretations and misrepresentations.

This

And as for extremist views - well many of our rights and generally accepted views we have now were once considered extremist views, and still are considered extremist views in parts of the world.

@caringcarer

Of course it is extreme. We live in a capitalist country. The opposite is communism.

Do you think that there are only 2 possible forms of managing society?

That seems like binary thinking.

@RubaiyatOfAnyone

I immediately read it as a caution on Black Lives Matter - i think the majority of people supporting the phrase don’t realise it’s not just a statement of fact, it’s the name of a specific political party which believes (amongst other things) in the overthrown of capitalism

See pg4 here
m4bl.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/CutMilitaryExpendituresOnePager.pdf

I assume the govt is worried about kids being radicalised as they are about any new political movement, although i personally think that any political belief that begins with “and you have to give up your phones” has little chance of gaining traction with the majority of the 13-25 age group.

Thanks for posting this. I think you are right. The government are clearly terrified of schools placing that document on the desks on intelligent young people. But I still think that they shod be reading these Primary resources themselves rather than just an ioversimplistic interpretation in The Times.

OP,
You think that 'overthrowing capitalism' is not an extreme position. You think that political lobby groups advocating its overthrow should be allowed into schools to disseminate propaganda. Can you explain what would replace it? What political system? With what democratic mandate? Instead of trotting out vacuous phrases, explain precisely what propaganda you endorse.

There is no need to want to overthrow it.

We live in a democracy, win the elections on platform the is against it and do it the peaceful way.

That’s what happened in most communist countries.

Also, communism is just as wasteful.

Look at the huge vanity programs what used to be the USSR, look at China.

The five year planning gospel can get more wrong than right.

This is from the relationships, sex and health guidance where it seems reasonable.

It's not guidance for those teaching history, politics or English.

@BovaryX

OP, You think that 'overthrowing capitalism' is not an extreme position. You think that political lobby groups advocating its overthrow should be allowed into schools to disseminate propaganda. Can you explain what would replace it? What political system? With what democratic mandate? Instead of trotting out vacuous phrases, explain precisely what propaganda you endorse.

The workers having more say in companies and how they are run. Businesses being supported if they run into financial issues - especially if they are essential to how people live. Essential businesses being run by the State instead of privately - even being allowed to run at a loss. Education, health care being provided to all people regardless of their ability to pay. It could be subsidised by people with wealth.

People with wealth being taxed more.
No person allowed to earn more than 100x the lowest paid person in their company.

Unless you want total capitalism?

@Fifthtimelucky

This is from the relationships, sex and health guidance where it seems reasonable.

It's not guidance for those teaching history, politics or English.

That's what surprised me. What has it got to do with relationships, sex and health?

When I was at school in the 80's, bearing in mind it was a girls school, we had a pro life group come and talk. Our teacher said before that we might hear some extreme views etc. Any way they turned up, all hippy and drippy and some bloke in round glasses and started talking about their stance. I think we could ask questions. Any way they left and we were so shocked that people thought like that to that extreme. It did bring about a great discussion in class. I think as long as you have fantastic teachers its good to be exposed to different views with a chance to talk afterwards. Children will hear about this stuff outside of school and may not have anyone to talk to. In a classroom the discussion can be more balanced. And no, talking about other alternatives to capitalism is not extreme.

I agree that it is bizarre that this is in the sex, health and relationships guidance. I am trying to think why? Perhaps it is because this area of the curriculum goes into grooming by extremist organisations, which often starts with a trusting friendship before developing into grooming?

So the guidance is putting belief in the overthrowing of capitalism under the same umbrella as belief in Islamic extremism, far right extremism etc.

@malificent7

Capitalusm is shit. Yanbu.

Said the person enjoying all the fruits of capitalism, not least through their use of modern technology and free speech. What’s that word....it yes ironic.

@DoctorTwo

sst1234 Sat 26-Sep-20 21:50:01

Funny how those that bear the fruits of capitalism the most tend to range against it. What do they call it....ah yes virtue signalling. Capitalism has successfully lifted billions out of poverty wherever it replaced the alternative. Ask those that lived behind the iron curtain for 70 years.
Now, cue the nonsense “yeah but, not but, yeah but socialism has never been tried properly”.

Funny how we've saved the banks and financial institutions (which is institutional socialism) but us poor people are subjected to capitalism. Thatcherism would have at least seen the banks go bust. Neoliberalism won't allow that, it makes too much money for the city and various MPs.

We have socialism for the rich and capitalism for the rest of us. And it's shit. Let's have the same rule for all.

I won’t argue against more capitalism. Because it is then opposite of cronyism.

@chomalungma

OP, why has the something better not been found billions of years after man landed on Earth? Is it a conspiracy

Is it an extreme political stance to want to abolish it?

I wonder if it was an extreme political stance in the Soviet Union to want to abolish communism?

Absolutely this! The amount of people that rage on about free thought and free speech yet happy that the state can determine that there is only one suitable political and economical system ??!

Laughable reallly

It really is extreme. It's overthrowing the fiscal system of the civilised world.

‘It talks about resources from active organisations not disallowing books on topics.’

A book is a resource.

This being part of sex and relationship education does put a bit of a different spin on it, because you can presumably then still look at extremist material in English and History.

Absolutely this! The amount of people that rage on about free thought and free speech yet happy that the state can determine that there is only one suitable political and economical system

What abject nonsense. The UK is a liberal Western democracy. People had a choice in December if they wanted to switch to a left wing alternative. You know. Redistribution of wealth. State ownership. Compelled speech. Pronoun police. The upshot was an 80 seat majority for the Conservatives. Constituencies that had voted Labour for a hundred years changed teams.

Do you understand that the alternative to capitalism is giving the state more power? Do you understand that the political faction which believes the state should control more aspects of individual life, that freedom and choice are irrelevant is the left wing? Do you understand the philosophical difference between Conservatives and the left is freedom versus 'equality?' The 'activists' demanding people are sacked, cancelled, no platformed are coming from one political direction. They have contempt for freedom of speech and think #no debate is a legitimate position. They got obliterated at the last election.

Overthrow implies a fairly thorough and rapid dismantling of an economic system and presumably the (particularly property) laws that underpin it.

I'd say that would raise alarm bells as to a group being an "extreme" organisation.

Even if I didn't think capitalism ideal.

@Stripesgalore

‘It talks about resources from active organisations not disallowing books on topics.’

A book is a resource.

This being part of sex and relationship education does put a bit of a different spin on it, because you can presumably then still look at extremist material in English and History.

You are highlighting the wrong part. The active organisation obviously cannot bring in a book either. It’s not about the form their resource takes.

A book about the end of capitalism can be discussed if it is not from an organisation that is using it as propaganda.