to think wanting to overthrow capitalism is not an extreme political stance

[chomalungma]

New school guidance issued last week for education.

www.gov.uk/guidance/plan-your-relationships-sex-and-health-curriculum#choosing-resources

Issued last Thursday, the guidance reads: “Schools should not under any circumstances use resources produced by organisations that take extreme political stances on matters.
“Examples of extreme political stances include, but are not limited to: a publicly stated desire to abolish or overthrow democracy, capitalism, or to end free and fair elections, opposition to the right of freedom of speech, freedom of association, freedom of assembly or freedom of religion and conscience

There are alternatives to capitalism. People may not like them, I don't necessarily agree with them - but I don't think it's an extreme political stance to take.

Yet the Government think it is.

Are people who think that there alternatives to capitalism taking an extreme political stance?

@Stripesgalore

"It is the only sustainably developed country in the world."

Could you provide a source for this assertion please?

It will be somewhere in the UN sustainable development info.

Apparently it is in the 2015 Sustainable Development Index, although I knew about it before 2015, so it is probably in many other reports too.

Not that I would want to live there and get thrown into a political prison.

@stripesgalore

None of the major industries was allowed to operate without Nazi involvement.

I’m still perplexed as to where the idea that the Nazis abolished capitalism came from.

They actually reprivatised a lot of stuff.

Did you watch Schindler’s List and think it was entirely fictional?

‘None of the major industries was allowed to operate without Nazi involvement.’

That does not even remotely, vaguely mean they abolished capitalism!

I feel this kind of stuff comes from the modern uni educational style where people just use words in ways that have nothing to do with their actual meaning.

Considering an alternative to capitalism is not the same as using resources in a state school produced by an organisation whose stated aim is to abolish or overthrow capitalism.

You're over-reacting. Teachers aren't banned from discussing capitalism and its pros and cons.

AgeLikeWine,

Cuba is a socialist country.

@Stripesgalore

"Companies privatized by the Nazis included the four major commercial banks in Germany, which had all come under public ownership during the prior years: Commerz– und Privatbank, Deutsche Bank und Disconto-Gesellschaft, Golddiskontbank and Dresdner Bank.[46][47] Also privatized were the Deutsche Reichsbahn (German Railways), at the time the largest single public enterprise in the world, the Vereinigte Stahlwerke A.G. (United Steelworks), the second largest joint-stock company in Germany (the largest was IG Farben) and Vereinigte Oberschlesische Hüttenwerke AG, a company controlling all of the metal production in the Upper Silesian coal and steel industry. The government also sold a number of shipbuilding companies, and enhanced private utilities at the expense of municipally owned utilities companies.[48] Additionally, the Nazis privatized some public services which had been previously provided by the government, especially social and labor-related services, and these were mainly taken over by organizations affiliated with the Nazi Party that could be trusted to apply Nazi racial policies.[49]"

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Nazi_Germany

Why would you discuss alternatives to capitalism without referencing the source material?

That would make Animal Farm confusing, or An Inspector Calls.

Aren’t some of the lines in them based on Marx?

Veni, why are you cutting and pasting a list of companies the Nazis privatised?

You understand that supports my argument, not yours?

Privatisation is when a government takes a socialist run organisation and turns it into a capitalist one.

Do you understand that?

@chomalungma

Funny how those that bear the fruits of capitalism the most tend to range against it. What do they call it....ah yes virtue signalling

Not saying I think capitalism is right or wrong.

Is wanting to overthrow it an extreme political act?

Isn't overthrowing anything usually pretty drastic? We're not talking about "changing" or "reforming" something, but "overthrowing" it.

It’s a clandestine swipe at parts of the BLM movement

@Stripesgalore

Cuba is a socialist country.

It’s economy is a mixture of capitalism, socialism and anarchism.

It is democratic at the local level but not at the national level.

It is the only sustainably developed country in the world.

So Cubans are allowed to elect their equivalent of local councillors, but are not allowed to sack their government, as the British people did In 1979, 1997 or 2010.

Nor are they allowed democratically to overturn the policy supported by their government, all the main opposition parties, the overwhelming majority of their elected representatives and almost the entire establishment and ruling class of their country, as the British people did on 23 June 2016.

On balance, I think I will stick with democracy, for all its flaws.

@chomalungma

OP, why has the something better not been found billions of years after man landed on Earth? Is it a conspiracy

Is it an extreme political stance to want to abolish it?

I wonder if it was an extreme political stance in the Soviet Union to want to abolish communism?

It was, and wouldn't have ended well for the unsuspecting would-be overthrower. Toppling the Berlin Wall was definitely a good thing but you can't deny that drastic action posed great risks. In a western democracy we have the freedom to use less drastic methods to effect change. That option didn't exist for the poor souls trapped behind the iron curtain.

‘So Cubans are allowed to elect their equivalent of local councillors, but are not allowed to sack their government, as the British people did In 1979, 1997 or 2010.‘

Yes, that is correct. That is what not being a democracy means at the national level. We are a democracy and Cuba is not a democracy.

There are alternatives to capitalism. People may not like them, I don't necessarily agree with them - but I don't think it's an extreme political stance to take.
There are alternatives to democracy too. People may not like them, I don't necessarily agree with them. Why do you consider that any more extreme that wanting to overthrow capitalism?

Abolishing capitalism varies in its level of extremism.

Abolishing democracy would presumably be a massive human rights’ violation, Sonia inherently extreme.

Schools should not under any circumstances use resources produced by organisations that take extreme political stances on matters [such as] a publicly stated desire to abolish or overthrow capitalism.

Is wanting to abolish capitalism such an extreme stance that it shouldn't be discussed in schools? If it's not even allowed to be discussed and alternatives discussed, then what kind of education is that?

It can be studied and discussed in schools. The subject is not banned. The resources used to do this must not, however, be from "extremist organisations", so history and politics text books, BBC programmes and the like are OK, but propaganda from The Red Army Faction or Sendero Luminoso is not.

@sst1234

Funny how those that bear the fruits of capitalism the most tend to range against it. What do they call it....ah yes virtue signalling. Capitalism has successfully lifted billions out of poverty wherever it replaced the alternative. Ask those that lived behind the iron curtain for 70 years. Now, cue the nonsense “yeah but, not but, yeah but socialism has never been tried properly”.

As someone who lived behind the iron curtain, I don't think its true that capitalism lifted billions out of poverty, it was the opposite. GDP and life expectancy plummeted in ex ussr countries, it took 20-30 years to reach previous levels and in some parts it never happened. Few people benefitted from capitalism, mostly those who were already a part of elite or lived in more developed areas.

‘It can be studied and discussed in schools. The subject is not banned. The resources used to do this must not, however, be from "extremist organisations", so history and politics text books,’

But no text books in history, politics and English literature that quote Marx or Engels, as that would break the rules.

Which is extraordinary. When I was at school the GCSE history text book included excerpts from Mein Kampf.

@Stripesgalore

Abolishing capitalism varies in its level of extremism.

Abolishing democracy would presumably be a massive human rights’ violation, Sonia inherently extreme.

And stealing someone capital that they've worked hard for isn't a human rights violation?

‘And stealing someone capital that they've worked hard for isn't a human rights violation?‘

I wouldn’t claim to be an expert on human rights and capital, but I am not aware that socialising industries is inherently contrary to human rights.

Abolishing democracy definitely is. It is covered by the original International Declaration on Human Rights.

It’s about who produces teaching materials, not banning discussion of ideas.

Schools are still teaching Animal Farm right now. No book burnings.