Another ‘He hasn’t proposed’ thread...

[MangoMarmalade]

Long story short:
We have three kids (older two not his, younger is one year old).
I have made no secret of desire to get married for multiple reasons. Had the ‘one day, let me ask you, it’s tradition’ promises from him.
I have an asset, he has none.
He works full time, I don’t have a career and don’t currently work at all.
When youngest was born I wanted to give my surname as he hadn’t wanted to get married yet. He was adamant that no, baby would have his surname and promised to propose within the year, be married within two.
Hasn’t happened. Last time we spoke about it he made the comment ‘but when our youngest is much older then we can have honeymoon’ etc he has wanted to have another baby, I said not without a ring on my finger and he was all ‘so you’d refuse to have another baby just for a bit of paper!’
Basically reveals he has no intention of fulfilling his promise of asking me any time soon.

AIBU to leave the relationship?

I would point out if he wants another baby that child is having whatever sir name you have at the time the child is born. So if your not married he had better accept that child's not having his name. Then see if he still wants a child. If he can spit his dummy out over the name so can you.

He has unwittingly done you a huge favour. Please do not marry this man without protecting your assets. I would consult a solicitor ASAP to check that that your dp has no claim on your assets as is, and move on.

This man has lied to you repeatedly. Why would you want to marry him or even continue a relationship with him? Your value is not dependant on this man wanting to marry you. I am married, happily. But my dm instilled in me at an early age that I do not need the validation of any man. She used to say that if a man doesn’t want to commit, move on with your head held high and make room for someone who does.

Your ‘d’p is putting you in this position and making you feel like this but you are allowing him to do so. It is too late now, but ask yourself why you let him talk you into breaking your own values so easily. Marriage is clearly very important to you but agreed to have a child out of wedlock - Why? You wanted to have the same name as your child but allowed him to talk you out of it on the promise (already broken) that he would eventually propose - Why? You should never allow your own wants and needs to be pushed aside so easily.

Your p doesn’t care about what you want or need so why are you so keen to be with him when his actions repeatedly tell you that he doesn’t feel the same way. If he loved you he would do anything within his power to make you happy, including marry.

I’m so sorry to be blunt but you deserve so much more than this. Please, please realise that you don’t need him. The only opinion that matters is your own.

What @DianaT1969 very eloquently said, with bells on!!!

@Iremembertheelderlykoreanlady that's such a sad situation with your dad. I would seriously struggle to not be absolutely full of resentment.

Well you are in this situation now. Whatever he says, it is unlikely he's going to do the big proposal that leads to marriage.

So even if you do stay together, you need to plan and live like you think he could walk out any day. As your youngest is 1, you might want to start looking to go back to work. Even if childcare takes all your wage, it'll be worth if to get you back established. (And 2 years to your dc3 getting funding will fly)

Save like mad. He might stay with you for the rest of your life, but as he's deliberately avoiding being legally tied to you, you have to consider he is wanting to make it as easy as possible to leave because he does intend at some point to leave.

OP, in your situation I agree with what PP said: the status quo is quite favourable for you, you own the house outright, he pays for the bills and food and the rest of the expenses, the relationship is very good otherwise, he loves the children and looks after them, the income he brings in the house is quite good, and you couldn't match it if you were working (you don't, and don't have immediate options for a career). Sounds like a good deal, however I understand you would like to be married, I really do.... but still I would look at the situation as it is at the moment and think what the options are for the future.

A question only you can answer: would you be able to support the children (financially AND emotionally) and the lifestyle if you break the relationship? (by law he will have to support the youngest, not the other two who are not his, and he generally won't have to support you, you'd need to go on benefits and will be expected to work and support yourself when the child is in school).

[quote MangoMarmalade]@Heyahun I did ask him he said no because he is the man and he has to propose.

Honestly I am going to have to reconcile myself to not getting married.

a) why get married to someone who doesn't want to marry you.

b) as per all the Advice on protecting my asset for sake of my kids.

I don't know if he will agree to changing the babies name to double barrel but I will suggest this.

Yes I'd say he's pretty committed without marriage but it's just the bullshit lies I'm pissed off with. [/quote]
He lied to you about marriage which is why you gave baby his name. He's let you down. He can remedy it by double barrelling. If you have another child - your name only.

I think for me it is his behaviour behind this more than the actual issue.

I don't believe it is just a piece of paper at all , I've recently just completed my divorce (many years after the split up and I have a DP now) but I still believe in the concept of marriage , it really isn't just paper to some people. It is a view that is representative of commitment . It's not better or worse than DC and property. Goodness knows that piece of paper will not save the relationship if it doesn't survive the pressure of children. But it is a meaningful commitment to some.

For me thought he constant dangling of the string would be an issue. Not to mention I have no truck with a man or woman who isn't ready after having DC together. If they are not sure about the commitment then they shouldn't have had the DC.

It feels controlling, it's a facade the whole not believing in it , tradition , cost of the ring etc it's a smoke screen. Perfectly possible and romantic to get married in a registry office and make it lovely.

It's that ultimate issue in the relationship, the control, the games the playing around with my emotions. I'd feel like this was just fun for him to string me along on this issue. That's not great for a committed relationship.

It's hard though , with DC yes you need to be sure why you are leaving but this would be an issue for me. It tells you who he is as a person....and that person has a nasty edge to them.

Sorry OP I don't think this has an easy answer. I'd be the same as you that now I wouldn't know if he had proposed because he wanted to (and had resolved that controlling game playing side ) or whether it was a bone to be thrown.

I find this situation so difficult as I’m in one similar.
I’ve always wanted to get married, but if you asked me why, I find it very hard to pinpoint reasons, except wanting to have the same name as our theoretical kids.

We’ve been together almost 6 years but DP has some family issues that have put him right off marriage. The most I get when we try to discuss it is “never say never”.

We recently discussed starting trying for a baby (I’m not massively fussed about being married first) and the discussion about the surname came up. I am adamant that the baby will have my surname, as I’ve always been clear that the reason I want to get married is for the family to all have the same name. If he doesn’t want to get married, fine, but you don’t get the name. DP was horrified at the idea of his kids not having his surname. The conversation didn’t go much further but I hoped it would make him think.

All in all, I’ve had to come to terms with the fact that I can’t control his desire to get married.
We love each other very much and I now have to work out whether I will be okay with us never getting married.

As I still don’t know why marriage is so important to me, I think that’s what I need to focus on first.

I would suggest having a really good think about why marriage is so important to you. Are those reasons more important than being in a loving relationship with the father of your children?

What did he say when you asked him why he lied?

I would see a solicitor about protecting your asset (house) and I'd take whatever steps the solicitor suggested for doing so.

Although he pays all the bills, he's not paying rent, is he? So in effect, you're contributing the biggest household cost.

Is there enough land there to maybe start up a cattery or a rabbit/guinea pig boarding business? When we had a rabbit, it was much harder finding somewhere to board her than it was for the cat. If not now, I appreciate you have a 1 year old, maybe something for the future?

Would anyone work a job without a contract? No, they likely wouldn't. So am baffled by the thinking that 'love' somehow makes it ok to share finances/lives/children without the 'contract' of marriage. And you are not petty or unreasonable for wanting to be married. Your needs DO matter.

Frankly, he's manipulated you by dangling marriage so you'd have kids with him that would take his name. He's not doing you a favour by paying bills, supporting your eldest etc - he's getting a free house to live in and a woman to raise his child full time. Also he know you're not likely to leave him as you aren't financially independent. Is a win win for him all around. There is absolutely no guarantee that he won't up and leave anyway, so staying just for your children's happiness is not a good enough reason either.

However, I do think you have got to start being more financially independent by taking on a job/career - because otherwise you're ripe to be taken advantage of and have no say in your future, with any man. So in that sense, I think you should focus on doing that rather than on marriage. Can you look to train in something or take on part time work - anything to get you back out in the workplace and give you a perspective of life that isn't just revolving around the men in your life? And you can get him to pay for child care/ any additional education costs! Then you can make decisions from a position of strength.

To be honest, I will never understand why people are so hooked up on being married....unless you are religious, want to maintain a certain image, or do things in a particular order there is no point really.

I'm not religious or particularly conventional. Neither was DH. But it was very important to us to stand up in front of a congregation of our family and friends and make that public commitment. It separated our relationship with the people we'd each lived with fairly casually in the past from this new, far more important commitment - it set this relationship in a different category.

We had a church wedding not because we were religious but because we didn't see our vows as being in front of the government (as in a register office) but as a profound spiritual bond.

Our vows were very important to us. When he died after 15 years of marriage it meant so much to us that we'd kept those vows until death did us part. DH was always so proud and happy to have me as his wife.

So I understand why OP feels as she does.

However she is a lot safer in material terms without getting married. Her home is hers alone, and he can make no claims on it - and that's a very big deal, as she's very vulnerable financially.

There are arguments on both sides, but I think OP is being eaten up by this betrayal and I suspect the relationship will not survive. His anger about the baby's surname is troubling.

He wants me to be at home with our child until she's in school because he doesn't want someone else looking after them while my minimum wage work would only just cover the cost of childcare and I do agree with this.

I wouldn't be entitled to any help with college funding because of his earnings but were in no position to get any loans.

I am feeling really deflated lately. Our child has just turned 1 but is still nursing to sleep for day time naps and nurses in the night. Bed sharing. Have tried sleep training but can't stand her screaming and crying. DP sleeps on sofa. No sex life. No 'life' really.

The thing is marriage means different things to different people. I feel the same as you OP, getting married and being able to call my OH my husband, and feeling like I have that extra layer of security in my relationship with the man I want to spend the rest of my life with means a great deal to me! It doesn't actually matter to my OH, but he understands my need for it. I also want the same surname as my DD, I don't think that is unreasonable. It is not just a piece of paper to me, it means so much more. Some people are more practical, I am more emotional. That's just the way it is. Yes, protect the house, but bear in mind if he is paying all the bills etc then it may be unfair to expect him to have no claim at all, since he is the one who has kept it running and paid for all the upkeep, the kids and you. If your life goals are totally incompatible though, it may be worth considering your future together. As you say you will feel like you have forced him into it, and that could also lead to some resentment on both sides.

Ah... ok, he's controlling. I get it now.

Don't marry him, FGS.

You sound exhausted. And have way bigger worries than getting married. Do you have someone to support you in real life, if you decide to split?

It sounds like is very committed to you and the children and does see himself as being with you for life.

I think often men do want to get married in some abstract sort of way, but they don't have any imperative for it e.g. your need to validated (which I do understand) or the romance of it, or the need for security, so it doesn't get to the 'top of the things to do this year list'.
As to them everything is fine for the moment.

So I think it's not always as simple as 'he doesn't want to marry you' it could be (and sounds like in your case) he does but he's just not that arsed about getting on with it. And he likes this idea that when he does get to that 'to do' job on his list one year, he'll do it amazingly and look like a big romantic hero.

Except it's not fine. You are deeply unhappy.

This is what needs to be conveyed to him. You cannot continue like this. You feel let down, lied to, angry with him, unloved and cherished, and denied the enjoyment of a married family unit which is so central to what you want in life.

You need to convey this to him In a serious and deep way.

And if he still doesn't care about how deeply he is hurting you. Then you have your answer and you walk away.

Or, you deal with the emotional needs you have around marriage, and do the pragmatic thing and keep your assets safe and stay unmarried.

@CoffeeAndWinePlease

Honestly it boils down to - if you don't want me as your wife then you don't value me much.

OK I just read your latest post, which has opened up a whole lot of bigger issues...

It would be insane to marry him without ring fencing your house, and why hasn’t he got any assets if he’s in his 30s and earns 50K plus? He might be paying the bills but he’s saving a fortune in rent or mortgage payments. He doesn’t sound like a good choice.

Having said all that I really don’t understand why women who want marriage agree to procreate beforehand. It’s as plain as the nose on your face that this does not bind men to you and frequently leaves women and children in a precarious financial situation.

He wants me to be at home with our child until she's in school because he doesn't want someone else looking after them while my minimum wage work would only just cover the cost of childcare and I do agree with this.

What he should realise is that your JOINT income wouldn't cover it. Men like don't into any other options e.g. both of you being part time so neither has to miss out on five years out of the workforce.

It's becoming increasingly obvious that you aren't a team in his eyes. You're his childcare and his landlord.

He sounds horrible and if it was 'just a piece of paper' what's his hesitance? If he would do it one day then what's the hesitance?

He doesn't want to marry you.

And I hate saying this but I've seen it so, so many times in real life - when men like this are dumped they end up marrying someone else and having kids really fucking quickly. I'm not even sure what the cause of this phenomenon is but it's a real thing.

He doesn't want to marry you. He has led you on. He won't let you double barrel the baby's name. He was angry when you suggested anything that wasn't entirely on his terms.

This is a really unhealthy relationship.

I have had MH issues in the past (namely PMDD) and he's made comments before about me changing before he will marry me but then backtracks when I confront him "so your love is conditional" and deny he means it. I think maybe he does mean it!

I just want to out here a message to all young women reading this:

GET MARRIED BEFORE YOU HAVE CHILDREN.

Not having a go at you OP, everyone sees to be dong it.

But women have been sold a lie about this 'piece of paper crap' and the romance of a wedding, and it doesn't matter what order you do it in.

Marriage is a hard nosed legal contract which protects women when they have to be reliant on men due to child rearing.

Unless you have some other way to protect yourself such as independent wealth or another type of legal contract GET MARRIED FIRST.

OP at least you are in a good position as you have the house.

MangoMarmalade

"He wants me to be at home with our child until she's in school because he doesn't want someone else looking after them while my minimum wage work would only just cover the cost of childcare and I do agree with this."

It's up to you if you think its best to remain at home but you're looking at it the wrong way: don't think of it as a minimum wage job which just cover the cost of childcare: think of it as a passport to your financial independence.

Doing a job will allow you to build some work experience and a professional reputation which will give you more financial leverage when your child goes to school. Remaining in the workforce and keeping your hand in is an investment in the future. If he is covering most of the household outgoings anyway you can afford to make that investment.

By the way, he seems very quick to dictate that you run your family along very traditional lines in every way except where it pertains to him and his role.

@MyPersona he is shit with money.