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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask why the North is generally seen as ‘poor’?

340 replies

Jules585 · 20/09/2020 19:21

Discussing the clear north south divide in Covid cases/restrictions with various people and often hear comments like ‘Well there’s a higher risk where there’s higher levels of deprivation/poorer areas etc.’, ‘poorer people and ethnic minorities worst affected’- suggesting in basic terms that there’s more Covid ‘up north’ as it’s poorer.

Now, don’t get me wrong, I know that London is the centre of finance/business etc. and yes, there are a lot of very wealthy Londoners. House prices are obviously extortionate but they’ve been inflated for a number of reasons.

But WHY is there this classic ‘grim up north’ perspective of anything north of the Home Counties really?

Having lived in the north, as well as in London, I can honestly say I found parts of London immensely ‘grim’ and deprived, there are millions of people working in low paid, precarious jobs. A huge amount of ethnic diversity. Most people can only dream of owning a house and end up spending an extortionate amount of rent on tiny, sub-standard accommodation.

I know there are various ‘northern’ cities that are often viewed as grim - but my experience even of the most commonly slated cities is that they all have lovely parts, often much closer to countryside and people are able to live a much better standard of living as wages are fairly similar (which they actually are in a lot of sectors and areas of the U.K. now!) and they can actually afford to buy a proper house.

I know for a fact that there isn’t as much of a London vs everywhere else salary divide now - and a lot of people still commute to the major cities as well.

Where does this snobbery come from? Is it as obvious as fact that the Royals are based down south etc etc?

I went to an infamously posh/snobby university and the teasing, snobbery and often insulting attitudes to anyone north of about Oxford was awful and I look back in amazement.

Thoughts? Where does it stem from and why is it still a thing?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Blondiney · 20/09/2020 20:41

My corner shop is M&S, my small terraced house has recently been valued at nearly 400K, the village is home to a smoothy shop, vegan cafes and assorted z-list celebs.

I'm clearly doing The North wrong! Shock

SheepandCow · 20/09/2020 20:44

@nostaples

The perception is grounded in fact: there IS more deprivation and less wealth in the north than the south as a whole. Exceptions do not prove the rule.
Here's some of the articles I mentioned. www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/may/01/covid-19-coronavirus-newham-london-uk-worst-affected-area

www.google.com/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/news/london/london-hit-hardest-coronavirus-deprivation-ons-a4467196.html%3famp

I remember the ONS data on the first wave of Covid. As reported in the article above, the top ten deprived areas were mostly London boroughs.

There might be less wealth in the north (look to Dorset and the Shires for the wealth) but there's also less extreme poverty.

Rosehip10 · 20/09/2020 20:45

Many northern towns are rough

Jules585 · 20/09/2020 20:45

@SheepandCow just wondering what you mean by ‘The Shires’ as basically every county outside of London has ‘shire’ in its name?

OP posts:
Jules585 · 20/09/2020 20:45

@Rosehip10

Many northern towns are rough
Based on what though?
OP posts:
nostaples · 20/09/2020 20:46

The north being poorer than the south as a whole does not mean that there aren't pockets of deprivation in the south. How odd!

Jules585 · 20/09/2020 20:46

@Blondiney

My corner shop is M&S, my small terraced house has recently been valued at nearly 400K, the village is home to a smoothy shop, vegan cafes and assorted z-list celebs.

I'm clearly doing The North wrong! Shock

@Blondiney I’ve had similar experiences - not so grim!!
OP posts:
MikeUniformMike · 20/09/2020 20:46

Thanks @ageingdisgracefully, I'll have to pack a parka and thermals for any journeys past that line, and make sure I pack a big hamper of healthy food.

frumpety · 20/09/2020 20:47

I remember getting the train down South a couple of years ago and chatting to a bloke who had been up North for a meeting, he was waxing lyrical about how much better the South was, I asked him to explain how and what he essentially came up with was he could get more varied take aways, which is understandable given how shit fish and chips are in the South, and that was what it boiled down to. Every single thing he mentioned we had or did as well and cheaper.

feistyoneyouare · 20/09/2020 20:48

@Blondiney

My corner shop is M&S, my small terraced house has recently been valued at nearly 400K, the village is home to a smoothy shop, vegan cafes and assorted z-list celebs.

I'm clearly doing The North wrong! Shock

Glad you felt able to share that with us.
Justaboy · 20/09/2020 20:48

I'm a southerner but love the North I reckon that York is one of the best places and Harrogate, Richmond yep, theres a reason its Called Gods County:)

Lancashire isn that bad either like Lancaster Warringtron Southport some intresting IT firms in Rochdale and Manchaster yep and a lot of lovely contry arras around and and about.

Probem wiht the UK is London and where its lcoated the UK as such is a long thin narrow country if it were more like say Eire and you had the capital in the middle bet it would be differnt!

Even Liverpool is OKJ if your a suporter:!

BessieSurtees · 20/09/2020 20:48

Why do people down South think the North stops in the Midlands?

It’s the weather it’s always colder up here. Everything seems better when the sun shines.

It’s the infrastructure for decades money has been spent on the South while the North is ignored.

Jules585 · 20/09/2020 20:48

@frumpety

I remember getting the train down South a couple of years ago and chatting to a bloke who had been up North for a meeting, he was waxing lyrical about how much better the South was, I asked him to explain how and what he essentially came up with was he could get more varied take aways, which is understandable given how shit fish and chips are in the South, and that was what it boiled down to. Every single thing he mentioned we had or did as well and cheaper.
Grin

‘What, you don’t have a million restaurants on Deliveroo?’

OP posts:
Blondiney · 20/09/2020 20:49

@feistyoneyouare

[quote Blondiney]
My corner shop is M&S, my small terraced house has recently been valued at nearly 400K, the village is home to a smoothy shop, vegan cafes and assorted z-list celebs.

I'm clearly doing The North wrong! Shock

Glad you felt able to share that with us.[/quote]
I'm glad you're glad.

BuggeredItUpAgain · 20/09/2020 20:49

bessiesurtees I always think of the north as being anywhere above Bristol

NellyJames · 20/09/2020 20:50

@nostaples, I wonder how much of that is rooted in house value? Where we lived, the opening of the M25 and the Thamslink quadrupled house prices in just a few short years for our parents. Much of that was gifted down/invested. Our parents’ generation became hugely asset wealthy with thousands finding that their small 1930s semi that they’d bought and paid for on one modest wage was now literally worth over 1 million pounds.

FreekStar · 20/09/2020 20:50

The only people I've ever met who have this attitude are closeted Londoners from affluent backgrounds who've never been north of Watford.

Obviously, you have to be a 'southerner' to hold this belief too, so most of the population are aware it's anything but grim up north. Everyone wants to live in Yorkshire these days...

Escapedtothecountry · 20/09/2020 20:50

Yes. Sadly it is grim up north. This is the gid awful view I have to endure every time I look out of my kitchen window.

To ask why the North is generally seen as ‘poor’?
PablosHoney · 20/09/2020 20:51

Now I can’t get ‘Life in a Northern town’ out of my head.

nostaples · 20/09/2020 20:51

It's based on everything: employment, average mortality, GCSE and A Level results...

nostaples · 20/09/2020 20:53

www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/northern-towns-higher-mortality-rates-20969989

'According to the 'State of the North 2019' report, "the UK is more regionally divided than any comparable advanced economy".'

Rocinante39 · 20/09/2020 20:54

An absurd potted history: a lot of the North was the creation of the Industrial Revolution. Large towns (those dark satanic mills) were built 'overnight' with little thought to beauty or the comfort of the new inhabitants. Those new inhabitants included many unemployed agricultural workers from the rural south. Ironically they had been made unemployed by the mechanisation of the farms. Often, the only available work was in the newly mechanised factories and mills of the grim North.
Most cities in the south have cathedrals a thousand years old. Most cities in the North don't - although we do have the best Cathedral in the country even if it is on the wrong side of the North. Instead of Cathedrals we got the football teams, also a product of the Industrial Revolution.
The other theory is we only pretend its grim up North so you pesky southerners don't come and annoy us. We are quite happy as we are.

nostaples · 20/09/2020 20:54

'It found that the disposable income divide is larger than any comparable country and has increased over the last 10 years.'

OlympicProcrastinator · 20/09/2020 20:54

You keep mentioning London when discussing down south. You realise the south is a big place and being southern doesn’t mean you have anything to do with or live anywhere near London right?

Blondiney · 20/09/2020 20:54

@Escapedtothecountry

Yes. Sadly it is grim up north. This is the gid awful view I have to endure every time I look out of my kitchen window.
How do you cope looking out onto such grinding misery, day in day out?

Escape to the country indeed. That's my next move, hopefully. Will probably entail moving even further Up North, the horror!