To ask why the North is generally seen as ‘poor’?

[Jules585]

Discussing the clear north south divide in Covid cases/restrictions with various people and often hear comments like ‘Well there’s a higher risk where there’s higher levels of deprivation/poorer areas etc.’, ‘poorer people and ethnic minorities worst affected’- suggesting in basic terms that there’s more Covid ‘up north’ as it’s poorer.

Now, don’t get me wrong, I know that London is the centre of finance/business etc. and yes, there are a lot of very wealthy Londoners. House prices are obviously extortionate but they’ve been inflated for a number of reasons.

But WHY is there this classic ‘grim up north’ perspective of anything north of the Home Counties really?

Having lived in the north, as well as in London, I can honestly say I found parts of London immensely ‘grim’ and deprived, there are millions of people working in low paid, precarious jobs. A huge amount of ethnic diversity. Most people can only dream of owning a house and end up spending an extortionate amount of rent on tiny, sub-standard accommodation.

I know there are various ‘northern’ cities that are often viewed as grim - but my experience even of the most commonly slated cities is that they all have lovely parts, often much closer to countryside and people are able to live a much better standard of living as wages are fairly similar (which they actually are in a lot of sectors and areas of the U.K. now!) and they can actually afford to buy a proper house.

I know for a fact that there isn’t as much of a London vs everywhere else salary divide now - and a lot of people still commute to the major cities as well.

Where does this snobbery come from? Is it as obvious as fact that the Royals are based down south etc etc?

I went to an infamously posh/snobby university and the teasing, snobbery and often insulting attitudes to anyone north of about Oxford was awful and I look back in amazement.

Thoughts? Where does it stem from and why is it still a thing?

The Shires include, in the north, Cheshire and parts of Yorkshire. South or North, it's mostly villages and market towns but some cities can be included, i.e. Harrogate, Richmond, York.

I know Harrogate and Richmond aren't cities btw. Just giving some examples of larger towns or cities.

@NoIDontWatchLoveIsland

There are national statistics gathered the Department for Communities & Local Government (or whatever it's called this week) - google "uk most deprived postcodes" and you can maps of deprivation. This isn't simply income level but a range of factors.

There are a greater proportion of the most deprived postcodes located in the north vs the south.

It's not really opinion driven in that sense.

It’s interesting - but I wonder if it’s a vicious cycle, like a pp said earlier, companies feel they have to be based in London to be prosperous when actually, a lot of tech businesses could easily be run from a Yorkshire village!

We lived in Hertfordshire before moving north (just south of Manchester) Neither of us are Northern but we moved with work. DH worked in London and when he talked about our move north he heard a lot of “oh wow you’ll be able to buy a castle etc’ and ‘ oh you’re so brave, I could never do that.’ He noticed it was mainly from the younger generation especially those who lived in Essex&Herts. Sadly we didn’t get much more for our money up here. We’re currently registered with estate agents looking to move down to Hampshire as soon as DD finishes her GCSEs next year. Some are quite openly and audibly shocked at our budget and that we can afford the area.

So I’d say yes, there does exist something whether it’s prejudice or naivety I’m not sure. I do think our friends and family in the SE are viewing Covid as a far away Northern problem at the moment caused by a mixture of poverty and large Asian families having fathering. Two doors down are neither poor nor Asian but just a white couple in their 30s who have a large house and think the rules don’t apply to them.

This goes back decades, even centuries, I think. The Industrial revolution largely began in the Midlands and the North, and certainly in Victorian England 'the North' was viewed as a dirty, rough place with uncouth people in it. This attitude is very well-illustrated in the London attitudes of Elizabeth Gaskell's novel 'North and South'.

gatherings sorry

The 'poorest' part of the UK is Cornwall.

I'm a southerner but I love it up north! I agree there is North South snobbery, although it does cut both ways IME!

@NellyJames

We lived in Hertfordshire before moving north (just south of Manchester) Neither of us are Northern but we moved with work. DH worked in London and when he talked about our move north he heard a lot of “oh wow you’ll be able to buy a castle etc’ and ‘ oh you’re so brave, I could never do that.’ He noticed it was mainly from the younger generation especially those who lived in Essex&Herts. Sadly we didn’t get much more for our money up here. We’re currently registered with estate agents looking to move down to Hampshire as soon as DD finishes her GCSEs next year. Some are quite openly and audibly shocked at our budget and that we can afford the area.

So I’d say yes, there does exist something whether it’s prejudice or naivety I’m not sure. I do think our friends and family in the SE are viewing Covid as a far away Northern problem at the moment caused by a mixture of poverty and large Asian families having fathering. Two doors down are neither poor nor Asian but just a white couple in their 30s who have a large house and think the rules don’t apply to them.

Yes this is the exact attitude!

My husband has this view, formed of touring football stadia as a lower-league away fan about 25 years ago. I say, many places have prospered! He won't sway. He won't holiday north of Brum, and I want to see these places! So he will stay at home whilst I go take a look and form my own opinion. We are Londoners.

You're so right, OP, it's the aesthetics that garner whether a place is seen as 'grim'. The pretty seaside towns don't offend the sensibilities so they're not seen as grim.

@Brockwell

My husband has this view, formed of touring football stadia as a lower-league away fan about 25 years ago. I say, many places have prospered! He won't sway. He won't holiday north of Brum, and I want to see these places! So he will stay at home whilst I go take a look and form my own opinion. We are Londoners.

Oh dear! He is missing out.

It's grim up north OP. It's very cold most of the year and all the people live in cramped terraced houses or local authority flats.
It snows all winter.
It's all like a Lowry painting, apart from the Lake District and the odd farm.
if you venture past Watford Gap, you'll need a flat cap and a whippet, or an apron and curlers. If you are younger than 30, you'll never wear long sleeves, and if you are female you will need slug eyebrows.

Probably for the same reason down south is seem as posh/stuck up. People unfriendly.

Stereotypes portrayed by the media and passed on through generations.

I’m from Salford, a nice area of Salford (there are a few 😂). Here were considered well off. In London our way of life would be drastically different, and not for the better.

Brockwell you're incredibly welcome to our little country which is regularly voted the most beautiful small country in the world. Your bigoted husband can stay home.

@MikeUniformMike

It's grim up north OP. It's very cold most of the year and all the people live in cramped terraced houses or local authority flats. It snows all winter. It's all like a Lowry painting, apart from the Lake District and the odd farm. if you venture past Watford Gap, you'll need a flat cap and a whippet, or an apron and curlers. If you are younger than 30, you'll never wear long sleeves, and if you are female you will need slug eyebrows.

I think TV has a lot to answer for the Royale Family for example was set up North and they are depicted as not having much money. The Full Monty was the same.
Quite a lot of industry was lost from the North too, maybe that's the reason why.
Unfortunately people buy in to stereotypes I know quite a few people (family) who live up North. Most of them are better off than me.

@NellyJames I assume your family and friends aren't anywhere near St Alban's. I noticed it on one of the lists of areas with worrying increases in Covid cases.

It's quite bizarre that attitude. Where on earth were these people when Covid was hitting London and the SE so very hard during March and April?

With housing. The main difference is most parts of the north are less likely to see whole families living in one room for years. There was an eye opening article in the Independent a few weeks ago. About Newham in London. It was one of the worse hit by Covid. It also has some of the worse overcrowding and homelessness in the whole country. Which is linked to why they suffered so badly from Covid.

The real divide is not north Vs south. The wealth is in the Shires.

There’s also the assumption that houses are much cheaper up north. I’ve seen posters on here asking where to relocate up north and are very surprised that in some of the nicer areas prices are in fact higher.

Shhhh! Don't tell people it's not actually that grim up north. The rents will go up!!
In all seriousness though, I agree. The north has some gorgeous places to live and some wonderful scenery. And the people are about a million times friendlier.

I hail from and currently live in the NW, but I’ve lived in the south too. I have to say that even when I lived in the south, and have been to and lived in their deprived areas, it didn’t seem to compare to the deprived areas here. The only place that possibly felt similar to me was Boscombe in Bournemouth, even then you can tell it used to be lovely before all the drug rehabilitation centres came along, thanks to the grand and beautiful (yet neglected) buildings.

One thing that’s always tickled me is how they’ll get a northerner to voice adverts that are centred around good customer service, low prices, things that are DIY-centric, and anything that’s meant to convey a feeling that the company will be there for you.
It’s as if they’re saying everyone up here is trustworthy and wholesome, unlike posh snobby southerners.

Sadly I think we’ll always get the ‘It’s grim up north’ comments, despite there being some absolutely beautiful places, as people tend to imagine factories, red brick and rain.

@Brockwell

My husband has this view, formed of touring football stadia as a lower-league away fan about 25 years ago. I say, many places have prospered! He won't sway. He won't holiday north of Brum, and I want to see these places! So he will stay at home whilst I go take a look and form my own opinion. We are Londoners.

Book him a two week break in the London Borough of Newham... He'll soon discover extreme deprivation on his doorstep.

Fewer good jobs. Traditional industries in the north have declined, causing high unemployment and poverty in the 80s and 90s, followed by low paid call centre jobs in the 00s. There are fewer opportunities for qualified individuals to get jobs, lots of people with law degrees working in Asda, people with PhDs working in admin, etc. If you’re lucky enough to have a good job you may well be trapped in it because there are no other equally good jobs for you to progress to. Higher rates of poverty and unemployment, lower average salaries, less opportunities for culture. It’s great if you’re one of the lucky few who earn a decent wage because houses are cheap and you can live like a king. It’s crap if you’re one of those who achieved highly at university but can’t get a job afterwards.

@MikeUniformMike

It's grim up north OP. It's very cold most of the year and all the people live in cramped terraced houses or local authority flats. It snows all winter. It's all like a Lowry painting, apart from the Lake District and the odd farm. if you venture past Watford Gap, you'll need a flat cap and a whippet, or an apron and curlers. If you are younger than 30, you'll never wear long sleeves, and if you are female you will need slug eyebrows.

Amazing 😂

@Tunnocks34

Probably for the same reason down south is seem as posh/stuck up. People unfriendly.

Stereotypes portrayed by the media and passed on through generations.

I’m from Salford, a nice area of Salford (there are a few 😂). Here were considered well off. In London our way of life would be drastically different, and not for the better.

I have a friend who for various reasons is planning a move up north (Leeds area)

She keeps making comments about how she needs to get used to a ‘new way of life’

I keep saying to her, you do realise people live normal lives even up north?? We go to work, we go shopping, socialise, god forbid go to restaurants! All with probably more disposable income!

Ignorance