To ask why the North is generally seen as ‘poor’?

[Jules585]

Discussing the clear north south divide in Covid cases/restrictions with various people and often hear comments like ‘Well there’s a higher risk where there’s higher levels of deprivation/poorer areas etc.’, ‘poorer people and ethnic minorities worst affected’- suggesting in basic terms that there’s more Covid ‘up north’ as it’s poorer.

Now, don’t get me wrong, I know that London is the centre of finance/business etc. and yes, there are a lot of very wealthy Londoners. House prices are obviously extortionate but they’ve been inflated for a number of reasons.

But WHY is there this classic ‘grim up north’ perspective of anything north of the Home Counties really?

Having lived in the north, as well as in London, I can honestly say I found parts of London immensely ‘grim’ and deprived, there are millions of people working in low paid, precarious jobs. A huge amount of ethnic diversity. Most people can only dream of owning a house and end up spending an extortionate amount of rent on tiny, sub-standard accommodation.

I know there are various ‘northern’ cities that are often viewed as grim - but my experience even of the most commonly slated cities is that they all have lovely parts, often much closer to countryside and people are able to live a much better standard of living as wages are fairly similar (which they actually are in a lot of sectors and areas of the U.K. now!) and they can actually afford to buy a proper house.

I know for a fact that there isn’t as much of a London vs everywhere else salary divide now - and a lot of people still commute to the major cities as well.

Where does this snobbery come from? Is it as obvious as fact that the Royals are based down south etc etc?

I went to an infamously posh/snobby university and the teasing, snobbery and often insulting attitudes to anyone north of about Oxford was awful and I look back in amazement.

Thoughts? Where does it stem from and why is it still a thing?

And from where I live in Trafford, I’m about as far away from Sunderland as I am from Oxford. I think roughly 150miles from each.

@SheepandCow

Something clearly went wrong with their accounting for then. How do they explain the fact of more homelessness including rough sleeping in London? Large numbers of workers unable to afford anything other than a rented room in an overcrowded HMO? Doing the same job that would (taking into account lower wage) buy a home in many (obviously not all) parts of the north.

This is probably because it's an average figure. London is a city of extremes - the gap between the wealthiest and the poorest tends to be much bigger than elsewhere, which will drag the average up, but that doesn't mean it has been calculated wrongly.

[quote NellyJames]@StyleandBeautyfail, even that seems confusing. It starts off talking very specifically about the NE then seems to change to talking about the generic ‘North’ again. So which is it? Is it saying the SE (excluding London) has wages 20% higher than the NE? Because that’s much more specific and not the same as saying the North is 20% poorer than the South. Not at all.[/quote]
The article referenced is about the North/South divide.
One part was quoted regarding SE/NE as an example.
Generally the N/S divide is closing but it exists.

Health outcomes, poverty, life expectancy, unemployment , youth unemployment, productivity, educational attainment and salaries.
All worse in the North generally

And then theres the weather

Sorry I meant to add that HMO are not always a sign of poverty.
Many cities in the UK have a very high proportion of HMO due to Universities/ students.

@StyleandBeautyfail, yes, but where is the North? That’s what I think is not being defined. And for that matter, where is the South? Does it include the high deprivation areas of the SW? Or is it just the Home Counties?
DH and I are southerners moving back south soon. But I just don’t see how they can come up with figures like the 20% without defining North and South. The 20% must be based on figures and thus the cut off for collected ‘north’ data must be somewhere.

If you read the actual report, its broken down area by area.

@StyleandBeautyfail, you say the article is about N/S divide but that particular bit relates to NE/SE; is that correct?
So is it still true to say the North is 20% more deprived than the South? Or only that the NE is 20% more deprived than the SE?

Yes, I’ll find a link and read the report. I just wondered if what you said was technically true or whether you’d extrapolated that from the NE/SE stat.

Shush now OP, it IS VERY GRIM up here in the Noth and don't you go telling folks down south it's not, they'll want to come here

@FrangipaniBlue

Shush now OP, it IS VERY GRIM up here in the Noth and don't you go telling folks down south it's not, they'll want to come here

Oh god that old chestnut !

Im sure people move for a variety of reasons.
Ive lived in various parts of the north and returned South as the job prospects were better, salary better and I could easily afford to live here in a lovely village, great transport links( had no choice but to drive everywhere previously) the weather is way nicer and I got sick of the constant bloody rain!
Here if it rains we are chuffed to bits as its really needed 😂
I guess its a wierd type of defensiveness where the issues are clearly documented, everyone is annoyed about it ( north/ south divide) but crikey if its ever mentioned northerners will defend, defend, defend and actually cut their own noses off !
I really hope their will be a change, that their will be fairer investment,remote working will change the salary gap but Im not holding my breath.

There

@StyleandBeautyfail, I honestly have never noticed there being worse weather here than we had in St Albans other than a bit more rain. However, DH is utterly convinced that the weather will be forever glorious when we move down to Hampshire soon. I fear he’ll be somewhat disappointed.

Here's a map of deprivation by area from 2019. There's a bundle of metrics in 'deprivation' but it's pretty clear that on balance there are more deprived areas in the North.

That was to clarify 'north v 'south' as oppose the NE vs SE for @NellyJames and @StyleandBeautyfail

I'm a northerner living down south so don't have an axe to grind but the data seems pretty clear.

@ThinkAboutItTomorrow, I’m not sure what you’re clarifying? My point was that StyleandBeautyfail mentioned The North being 20% more deprived than the South and then used an article to back this up. That article said the NE was 20% more deprived than the SE and I was simply saying that those two assertions are not the same. I was also saying there seems to be no clear definition of where the North starts and also whether deprived parts of the East such as Peterborough count as being in the north or south of the country. And indeed whether deprived areas of the SW are included in figures for the South.

I’m well aware of the map of deprivation. However, does your map include London? I ask because other I’ve seen show far higher deprivation levels in inner London than I can see from your map. Maybe different criteria.

I have no axe to grind either. I’m a southerner living in a very affluent part of Grt Manchester. We are also due to move back south soon. My points earlier on the thread were really just to point out that many of our friends and family in the SE can’t get their head around house prices here or how high performing our grammar schools are as there’s an assumption that all of the North especially the NW is grim and deprived. They all thought moving up here would result in us living in a mansion with huge disposable income, or that DH’s salary must have dropped dramatically. Of course, neither of these things happened.

But I’ll concede the rain.