To ask why the North is generally seen as ‘poor’?

[Jules585]

Discussing the clear north south divide in Covid cases/restrictions with various people and often hear comments like ‘Well there’s a higher risk where there’s higher levels of deprivation/poorer areas etc.’, ‘poorer people and ethnic minorities worst affected’- suggesting in basic terms that there’s more Covid ‘up north’ as it’s poorer.

Now, don’t get me wrong, I know that London is the centre of finance/business etc. and yes, there are a lot of very wealthy Londoners. House prices are obviously extortionate but they’ve been inflated for a number of reasons.

But WHY is there this classic ‘grim up north’ perspective of anything north of the Home Counties really?

Having lived in the north, as well as in London, I can honestly say I found parts of London immensely ‘grim’ and deprived, there are millions of people working in low paid, precarious jobs. A huge amount of ethnic diversity. Most people can only dream of owning a house and end up spending an extortionate amount of rent on tiny, sub-standard accommodation.

I know there are various ‘northern’ cities that are often viewed as grim - but my experience even of the most commonly slated cities is that they all have lovely parts, often much closer to countryside and people are able to live a much better standard of living as wages are fairly similar (which they actually are in a lot of sectors and areas of the U.K. now!) and they can actually afford to buy a proper house.

I know for a fact that there isn’t as much of a London vs everywhere else salary divide now - and a lot of people still commute to the major cities as well.

Where does this snobbery come from? Is it as obvious as fact that the Royals are based down south etc etc?

I went to an infamously posh/snobby university and the teasing, snobbery and often insulting attitudes to anyone north of about Oxford was awful and I look back in amazement.

Thoughts? Where does it stem from and why is it still a thing?

When I studied economics the North of Ireland was always considered poorest part of UK because it had lowest GDP per capita. But it also had the highest standard of living in the UK by a significant amount (more cars, TVs, health services etc per person)

I think inflation will skew results and thinking. (think of the house you could buy up north for the same money in London)

@theemmadilemma

My completely uneducated, born of childhood view, as a 'Southerner' was that the closing of industry in the North had caused some of the poverty of yesteryear. These days I don't think it's that different. There are pockets of poverty and money in most areas of the UK.

I would expect to see the gap between North and South closing more and more. We will be just one of the many people who are no longer tied to an office and therefore are taking our wages and our lives further North for a slice of country life instead of sitting in the middle of suburbia watching the green around us disappear as it built on and on, growing the town and shrinking the countryside.

The only people who will be able to do this are people in white-collar, middle class type jobs which will allow WFH. Anyone who works in a job that is more practical / hands on is stuck where they've always needed to live.

So we'll have a hugely mobile middle class but an immobile working class (generalising - obvs some MC have to work in person, e.g. Drs, and some WC can work remotely).

This isn't going to benefit the WC in rural areas at all. It'll be a disaster for them, in terms of housing affordability. The local service economy might benefit to some extent, but local retail probably won't - people will order online if they can't visit the London branch of their favourite clothes shop. The wages associated with most rural industries (farming, forestry etc.) will stay at their current low levels - they aren't going to increase just because rural areas now contain more wealthy people.

Also, if people really do move en masse to rural areas then this:

sitting in the middle of suburbia watching the green around us disappear as it built on and on, growing the town and shrinking the countryside

is exactly what will happen. The housing shortages in these areas will become more acute, and more building will take place. Do you think the SE is the only area that is seeing large scale development right now?

@Graciebobcat

It's ignorance, and some middle-class born and bred Londoners/people from home counties can be most ignorant, parochial and snobby about the rest of the country than anyone. They consider themselves terribly cosmopolitan, and of course they are absolutely not racist, but their view of the rest of the UK is just a series of stereotypes.

Your ignorant stereotype more accurately describes London/Home County incomers from the rest of the UK. A small minority thankfully. Most people are decent wherever they're from. The ones meeting your caricature live in a middle-class bubble but like to pretend they're oh so much more down to earth and poor than everyone else, because they're not from the place they chose to move to (pricing out the genuine poor). Nevermind they're actually much more comfortably off than most others. They're not very bright but think they're better than everyone else. In short, the snootiest and most prejudiced people imaginable.

The starter was salmon, and the woman next to me clearly thought it was totally fine to comment: ‘well, this must be a treat for you (the salmon), coming from up north

Thus made me laugh. I had a similar experience when invited to a dinner party with my now DH’s friends. A woman said very loudly ‘you don’t sound like you’re from X’ when I spoke. The whole table stopped and looked at me and said ‘say something, talk’ and had a discussion about my accent! She fully intended to be rude and said it as a put down. I was really annoyed at the time. I wish I had put on an accent and taken the complete piss but I was both shy and embarrassed.

If we'll going to make up stereotyped 'Snooty Southerners' can we conjure up some stereotyped 'salt of the earth' northerners?

An exercise in creative writing. Gold star to the most entertaining writers. Perhaps first prize can be a hamper of the poster's choosing - The Southerner or the Northerner, with respective wildly stereotyped food inside. Let's think up the most stereotyped hampers. What shall we include?

Ham, pease pudding and stottie.
Greggs sausage roll in a paper bag.

@SheepandCow Obviously hit a raw nerve there. Think I hit the nail on the head personally. There are dozens of people who have the attitudes I describe, I've met them. I was quite clearly describing "some" not "all". It's an extremely accurate stereotype, not an ignorant one.

I havent met those dozen people @Graciebobcat
So does that make me right ?
Most people are just getting on with their lives.
Keeping on with "everyone I know says this" is ridiculous and ignores the facts.

The north generally is poorer , 20% poorer plus all the inequalities that come with that, health outcomes, child poverty, abuse, drugs, alcohol.
20% higher salary is massive, it impacts everything including pension provision later in life.
Ignoring that because your life is fine is a type of defensive ignorance.

Top “north” fact.

The most and least deprived wards in England are 4 miles apart in Sheffield, at the Manor (most deprived) and Hallamshire Ward (Nick Clegg’s old constituency, least deprived). There is grimness and affluence everywhere.

[quote Graciebobcat]@SheepandCow Obviously hit a raw nerve there. Think I hit the nail on the head personally. There are dozens of people who have the attitudes I describe, I've met them. I was quite clearly describing "some" not "all". It's an extremely accurate stereotype, not an ignorant one.[/quote]
I've met a number of really unpleasant people called Gracie. All horrible. Should I therefore assume that the thousands (or more) other Gracies are also so nasty?

I don't like ignorance and prejudice. Particularly when it directly or indirectly leads to great misery. In this case, the often ignored and overlooked plight of the deprived communities in London and the rest of the south.

The most deprived part of the whole country is in the south - Cornwall.
During the Covid first wave the ONS listed the top ten deprived areas worse hit by the pandemic. Nearly all were London boroughs. There is more homelessness including rough sleeping in London than anywhere else in the UK. A lack of roof over head is the most basic demonstration of extreme poverty.

I don't like ignorance and prejudice. Particularly when it directly or indirectly leads to great misery. In this case, the often ignored and overlooked plight of the deprived communities in London and the rest of the south.

You make it sound as though the government is funnelling money up north rather using it to alleviate poverty in London. Do you honestly believe that's the case? The poor get screwed over everywhere - London isn't a special case.

Poor people have worse life expectancy, worse housing, poorer diet and higher rates of chronic illness all over the country. In the first Covid wave deprived parts of London were worst hit. In this wave, deprived parts of the north are being worst hit. It's not a competition - there are no winners there.

Well, employers clearly get away with paying a lot less up North. Has anyone seen the news that Ocado are moving their operations from Hatfield to Sunderland?
In Hatfield, employees are on 24k. The exact same job in Sunderland will only pay about 19k.

Also, I find it a bit odd to take it so personally when people relate their experiences of a southerner behaving snobbily towards them, and accuse posters of making things up.

I grew up in the south, now live in the north, and even I can relate stories of southerners patronising me because of where I now live. It does happen - that's a fact, not a general judgement on everyone living in the south.

Conversely, in all my time living up north no-one has ever commented on my southern accent other than as a general enquiry as to where I'm from. Does my personal experience mean there are no stereotypes about southerners? Of course not, my experience isn't universal.

There are things about London that make things worse for the poor (chiefly housing costs), but there are also things that make it easier (more jobs at all levels, cheap and plentiful public transport). Housing may be cheaper in the north, but in many areas it is incredibly difficult to find any work at all, or to get around if you can't afford a car.

Let's have a bit less of the divide and rule stuff. It's not a poverty top trumps - we can acknowledge both sets of difficulties without playing one off against the other.

@honeybeetheoneandonly

Well, employers clearly get away with paying a lot less up North. Has anyone seen the news that Ocado are moving their operations from Hatfield to Sunderland? In Hatfield, employees are on 24k. The exact same job in Sunderland will only pay about 19k.

Yep. That's consistent with my comments upthread that wages are typically 1/3 higher in the south compared to the North East / Yorkshire.

@ReceptacleForTheRespectable
I was responding to the posters who remain so desperate to paint London and the south as being awash only with wealth. How does pointing out they're very wrong translate as me thinking there's no poverty in the north? Yes, the north didn't suffer the plundering investment London has had, i.e. a minority of rich people making basic essentials like housing too expensive for normal and poorer people (although Manchester's seeing some of it now). That doesn't mean there's no deprivation in the north. Of course there is. I'd like to see better investment across the board for deprived communities. And by investment, I don't mean pushing up house prices...

So it seems we agree. You're saying what I already said in my earlier posts.
People shouldn't be setting one group against another, and I've been arguing against this unhelpful division that some people seem so desperate to create or maintain.

@StyleandBeautyfail, the problem with saying the North is 20% poorer is how abstract that is. What and where is the North? How do you technically define it? Because you need to if you’re saying it’s 20% poorer. And poorer than where? London? The Home Counties? Certainly not large parts of the SW which includes some of, if not the most, deprived area of the UK. And Lincolnshire, is that the North? Parts are hugely deprived and geographically it sort of straddles both. If you look are the deprivation map posted up thread quite a few times you’ll see that actually deprivation and indeed affluence is found across the country. In fact the spread is far more even than I expected.

wages are typically 1/3 higher in the South compared to the NE/Yorkshire
And like you said it's not a competition.
That 1/3 higher is pretty pointless when it still doesn't pay for the (much higher) cost of a roof over the head.

Btw average wages are lower on the south (Cornwall) than anywhere else on the UK.

You make it sound as if the government is funnelling money up north
How on earth did you interpret it that way? I've made it very clear in previous posts it's the minority of rich 'investors', who make money out of London, who are responsible for the plight of London's deprived. They come from all over but mostly the shires (including the northern shires).

I find it a bit odd to take it so personally when people relate their experiences of a southerner behaving snobbily
Can't speak for anyone else but I took nothing especially personally. Why should I? There are nine million people living in London alone. Add in everyone else on the south - and that's a huge number of people. It's very obvious a couple of stereotyped anecdotes online couldn't possibly be anything other than massive generalisation.

I find it very odd to take so personally someone pointing that out. Like you say, just as a tiny minority of southerners are 'snobs', so are a minority of northerners ignorant about the realities of London and southern poverty.

Luckily most people (wherever they are) are more intelligent than to rely on silly stereotypes.

@ThinkAboutItTomorrow

Well the South East (exc London) has incomes 20% higher than the North East, even once high housing costs are accounted for. On that basis seeing the North as 'poorer' is kind of correct.

That said, it's reduced massively from a 40% gap in 1990.

Also 'economic inactivity' among working age adults is about 15% higher in the north than the South. (ONS 2020).

Seems there is a divide but it's not as extreme as many imagine.

@NellyJames It was in reference to the above. I didnt just pluck a figure out of the air.

The report is pictured in Thinkabouts post

@SheepandCow

wages are typically 1/3 higher in the South compared to the NE/Yorkshire And like you said it's not a competition. That 1/3 higher is pretty pointless when it still doesn't pay for the (much higher) cost of a roof over the head.

Btw average wages are lower on the south (Cornwall) than anywhere else on the UK.

The figure for the NE vs SE was 20% with increased housing costs accounted for.

Something clearly went wrong with their accounting for then. How do they explain the fact of more homelessness including rough sleeping in London? Large numbers of workers unable to afford anything other than a rented room in an overcrowded HMO? Doing the same job that would (taking into account lower wage) buy a home in many (obviously not all) parts of the north.

It is an act us northerners put on to discourage the southern riff-raff from relocating and clogging the place up with their avocados and dry chips:-)

@StyleandBeautyfail, even that seems confusing. It starts off talking very specifically about the NE then seems to change to talking about the generic ‘North’ again. So which is it? Is it saying the SE (excluding London) has wages 20% higher than the NE? Because that’s much more specific and not the same as saying the North is 20% poorer than the South. Not at all.