To ask why the North is generally seen as ‘poor’?

[Jules585]

Discussing the clear north south divide in Covid cases/restrictions with various people and often hear comments like ‘Well there’s a higher risk where there’s higher levels of deprivation/poorer areas etc.’, ‘poorer people and ethnic minorities worst affected’- suggesting in basic terms that there’s more Covid ‘up north’ as it’s poorer.

Now, don’t get me wrong, I know that London is the centre of finance/business etc. and yes, there are a lot of very wealthy Londoners. House prices are obviously extortionate but they’ve been inflated for a number of reasons.

But WHY is there this classic ‘grim up north’ perspective of anything north of the Home Counties really?

Having lived in the north, as well as in London, I can honestly say I found parts of London immensely ‘grim’ and deprived, there are millions of people working in low paid, precarious jobs. A huge amount of ethnic diversity. Most people can only dream of owning a house and end up spending an extortionate amount of rent on tiny, sub-standard accommodation.

I know there are various ‘northern’ cities that are often viewed as grim - but my experience even of the most commonly slated cities is that they all have lovely parts, often much closer to countryside and people are able to live a much better standard of living as wages are fairly similar (which they actually are in a lot of sectors and areas of the U.K. now!) and they can actually afford to buy a proper house.

I know for a fact that there isn’t as much of a London vs everywhere else salary divide now - and a lot of people still commute to the major cities as well.

Where does this snobbery come from? Is it as obvious as fact that the Royals are based down south etc etc?

I went to an infamously posh/snobby university and the teasing, snobbery and often insulting attitudes to anyone north of about Oxford was awful and I look back in amazement.

Thoughts? Where does it stem from and why is it still a thing?

Things have changed a lot in the past 30 years, but the prejudice goes back a long way - hundreds and hundreds of years, long before the industrial revolution. The north seen as wild and backward.

Even in the 1970s/1980s, I think unemployment was something like 10 times higher, on average, in the North of England than in the South.

I blame The full monty and brassed off 😉

@Ranunculi

Fewer good jobs. Traditional industries in the north have declined, causing high unemployment and poverty in the 80s and 90s, followed by low paid call centre jobs in the 00s. There are fewer opportunities for qualified individuals to get jobs, lots of people with law degrees working in Asda, people with PhDs working in admin, etc. If you’re lucky enough to have a good job you may well be trapped in it because there are no other equally good jobs for you to progress to. Higher rates of poverty and unemployment, lower average salaries, less opportunities for culture. It’s great if you’re one of the lucky few who earn a decent wage because houses are cheap and you can live like a king. It’s crap if you’re one of those who achieved highly at university but can’t get a job afterwards.

But is this completely true? Plenty of large law firms, professional services, financial services organisations at least have offices in several northern cities. Lots of public sector jobs. If it is true then that is depressing.

As I understand it, it first happened after William, Duke of Normandy punished the North for continued rebellion after his invasion in 1066. It was known as the 'Harrying of the North'
://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrying_of_the_North
The effects were so severe that the North has never really recovered

@UrbanGreen

There’s also the assumption that houses are much cheaper up north. I’ve seen posters on here asking where to relocate up north and are very surprised that in some of the nicer areas prices are in fact higher.

This!

I have lived 'up north' and it was fine. Rained a lot.
I've lived in a city in the south-west that is considered a great place to live and it was anything but, and it rained a lot.

I've lived in the south east and liked it there but it hardly rains.

I'm not sure where 'up north' starts, but most of the UK has nice parts.

@Brockwell, what is it he thinks? Does he think it’s grim and poverty ridden? As a southerner I honestly would say I’ve seen more poverty in London than in Manchester in the years I’ve lived here. There’s also a vast amount of wealth in these parts which is not the life being led by most ordinary people. Although the most polarised city on paper is undoubtedly London, I personally have seen the biggest differences in Edinburgh.

In my experience lots of Londoners and those from middle class or affluent backgrounds in the Home Counties etc are the most parochial I've come across. For example, couldn't say whether Sheffield or Blackpool was in Lancashire/Yorkshire. At a guess would estimate that Leeds was 30 mins or so drive up to Scotland. Shocked that you can spend £800k in some parts of Cheshire / the lakes / North Yorkshire and 'only' get a semi detached house, etc.
I think it's down to historical stereotypes and the fact that many of us don't socialise with those of a different social/class/racial/political background to ourselves. Shame really.

@tornadoalley

Ignorance

Yes absolutely. And it's an ignorance that causes the greatest suffering to deprived communities down south. The narrative pushed by the media and the ignorant that the south is wealthy means those who are poor down south (a sizeable group) are completely overlooked. They don't exist to many people. For there to be any chance of help or support, the issue has to first be acknowledged. A PP is right. The most deprived part of the UK is down south - Cornwall. But really the very worst off are poor people living in areas supposed to be rich.

@msflibble

Shhhh! Don't tell people it's not actually that grim up north. The rents will go up!! In all seriousness though, I agree. The north has some gorgeous places to live and some wonderful scenery. And the people are about a million times friendlier.

Have to say I feel quite smug about my ‘way of life’ compared to a lot of my London friends.

It’s our secret

@WineIsMyCarb

In my experience lots of Londoners and those from middle class or affluent backgrounds in the Home Counties etc are the most parochial I've come across. For example, couldn't say whether Sheffield or Blackpool was in Lancashire/Yorkshire. At a guess would estimate that Leeds was 30 mins or so drive up to Scotland. Shocked that you can spend £800k in some parts of Cheshire / the lakes / North Yorkshire and 'only' get a semi detached house, etc. I think it's down to historical stereotypes and the fact that many of us don't socialise with those of a different social/class/racial/political background to ourselves. Shame really.

Yeah I’ve experienced this as well - some really ignorant and stupid beliefs about the geography, climate etc of anywhere north of London!

Maybe it's a Hertfordshire thing - my in-laws are from Herts and they have some very strange ideas about the North.

@Ranunculi - I imagine with many huge companies having large offices in the north, this cannot be true.
DH for instance works for a very large company here, and is earning a good wage, he has moved around up here doing said job and has never had an issue in doing so. Yet he wouldn’t be able to get a job anywhere down south, other than outer and central London, that offers the same level of pay or higher.

I grew up in Lincolnshire, but now live in Sussex. Lincolnshire itself - ie the villages in which I grew up - seemed fairly average though the city of Lincoln was always fairly deprived. I went to university in the North East and my sister in the North West, and both of us were a little taken aback by how ‘tough’ some areas felt to us.

Where I live in Sussex it’s very, very wealthy BUT the seaside towns on the coasts are fairly derived.

Has it got anything to do with areas where there is a higher concentration of built up areas? So the South mainly has London and some smaller towns, but if you take Manchester/Liverpool area that’s a high concentration of people, as is Newcastle/Gateshead/Sunderland/Middlesbrough etc?

(I am not remotely qualified in this area by the way, these are just musings)

The perception is grounded in fact: there IS more deprivation and less wealth in the north than the south as a whole. Exceptions do not prove the rule.

[quote NellyJames]@Brockwell, what is it he thinks? Does he think it’s grim and poverty ridden? As a southerner I honestly would say I’ve seen more poverty in London than in Manchester in the years I’ve lived here. There’s also a vast amount of wealth in these parts which is not the life being led by most ordinary people. Although the most polarised city on paper is undoubtedly London, I personally have seen the biggest differences in Edinburgh.[/quote]
Yeah. There are many parts of London I felt horrified by - not many places I’ve seen ‘up North’ that compare!

Interestingly, it's in many countries. I think it's because north was industrial, south agriculture. One left, other didn't.

That, combined with prejudice, statistics and politics just gives that picture.

I live up North and I love it anyway😁

[quote WiggleSquiggle]@Ranunculi - I imagine with many huge companies having large offices in the north, this cannot be true.
DH for instance works for a very large company here, and is earning a good wage, he has moved around up here doing said job and has never had an issue in doing so. Yet he wouldn’t be able to get a job anywhere down south, other than outer and central London, that offers the same level of pay or higher.[/quote]
Exactly!

Someone I worked with years ago said that from Surrey to Edinburgh was only twice the distance from Surrey to Birmingham.

When I was studying Geography back in the day, it was called the Severn/Wash divide; an imaginary diagonal line drawn from just above the Wash to the Severn Estuary. Above are the traditional industrial areas and below it London and the South.

@WineIsMyCarb
Yes it really is a shame. Stupid division based on ignorance and a mischievous media.

I've found the same issue you experienced the other way round. People from the north who expected the whole of London and the south east to be awash with wealth. They've been stunned when they see the extent of deprivation that exists.

They also get confused over southern geography. I blame the UK wide changes in the 60s. Lots of places moved counties or became a brand new one. Older people, north and south, often refer to themselves as being in the 'old' county.

@Ranunculi, I don’t recognise Manchester in what you say at all. And I have no axe to grind as we’re southerners moving back down south soon.
My husband is a lawyer who works in house for an investment firm. Manchester City Centre is hugely corporate. The ‘Big 4’ are all represented as are the major banks (offices not retail) When we moved up there was no pay cut for DH which was just as well as house prices in the areas we liked were no cheaper than where we’d moved from. One of my struggles moving back down has been finding a school as high achieving as DD’s grammar school not just for her A’levels but as we have 2 younger ones nearing the top of primary school.

I’m from Newcastle but live in London, and would LOVE to go back.
All of my family are still there, and they have a much better quality of live.
Eg my brother lives there and earns around the same as me. He’s currently buying a large 4 bed house for about £380k and considering private school for his DD.

I’m trying to move atm to be close to a decent state school; to do so, my options are flats with shared gardens between £500-650k Or houses above £700k.

Historically, the economy of large parts of the birth of England was based on heavy industries - cotton and woollen mills, coal mining, quarrying, ship and train building - all of which benefitted the economy of the whole country, but which were dirty work and needed 100s of low paid, “disposable” workers. There was a coal mine in my village until about 10 years ago -a much smaller operation than 100 years ago - and a woollen mill until 1975.

These industries are largely diminished now, but the traditional, historical image lives on.

@NellyJames - Here, here!
Unless Manchester is the exception?