To ask why the North is generally seen as ‘poor’?

[Jules585]

Discussing the clear north south divide in Covid cases/restrictions with various people and often hear comments like ‘Well there’s a higher risk where there’s higher levels of deprivation/poorer areas etc.’, ‘poorer people and ethnic minorities worst affected’- suggesting in basic terms that there’s more Covid ‘up north’ as it’s poorer.

Now, don’t get me wrong, I know that London is the centre of finance/business etc. and yes, there are a lot of very wealthy Londoners. House prices are obviously extortionate but they’ve been inflated for a number of reasons.

But WHY is there this classic ‘grim up north’ perspective of anything north of the Home Counties really?

Having lived in the north, as well as in London, I can honestly say I found parts of London immensely ‘grim’ and deprived, there are millions of people working in low paid, precarious jobs. A huge amount of ethnic diversity. Most people can only dream of owning a house and end up spending an extortionate amount of rent on tiny, sub-standard accommodation.

I know there are various ‘northern’ cities that are often viewed as grim - but my experience even of the most commonly slated cities is that they all have lovely parts, often much closer to countryside and people are able to live a much better standard of living as wages are fairly similar (which they actually are in a lot of sectors and areas of the U.K. now!) and they can actually afford to buy a proper house.

I know for a fact that there isn’t as much of a London vs everywhere else salary divide now - and a lot of people still commute to the major cities as well.

Where does this snobbery come from? Is it as obvious as fact that the Royals are based down south etc etc?

I went to an infamously posh/snobby university and the teasing, snobbery and often insulting attitudes to anyone north of about Oxford was awful and I look back in amazement.

Thoughts? Where does it stem from and why is it still a thing?

I would have thought that obvious @Jules585 where there is more poverty, higher mortality, more cancer, more unemployment, poorer exam results, more social deprivation, fewer chances for social mobility etc

then there is also going to be more 'grimness' and with that more perception of grimness

For example the Coronavirus hotspots at the moment are in Bolton, Bradford and Oldham.

Areas of high deprivation and also high immigration.

Index of multiple deprivation map. Clearly there are deprived boroughs scattered through the country but the overall picture shows a concentration towards the north and west. What this has to do with Covid is a different discussion.

Of course there’s more economic wealth in London. It’s the capital city and it’s heavily invested in by extremely wealthy businesses and individuals from around the world.

But many posts on here have shown that there are many incorrect assumptions made about this generic place, ‘The North‘. I still believe that a lot of people in the SE are far better off that those with equivalent qualifications and career paths simply due to the meteoric rise in house prices in the late 1980s, through the mid to late 90s then again in the early 2000s.

And long may this opinion of the north continue, keeps the southerners and their money away 😉

@feistyoneyouare that is pretty categorical

Can't really believe people are asking this question

Do you really not know about the decline of the mills, mining, industry generally?

It's all our chip pans and whippets.

@canigohomenow

It's not 'poorer' however I don't believe it has received anywhere near the investment as the south has. Moreover, it lacks the economy - there are fewer jobs because many of the cities are nowhere near as central. There are fewer transport links etc.

Contrastingly however, I would say the average family in the north has more disposable income than the south simply due to the lower housing costs. Our home in the North would cost near to £1,000,000 down south and it's a very boring 3 bed semi.

So the North is certainly not poorer from my experience.

But wages (esp in the private sector) are also less outside London. Experienced chartered accountant jobs in the North West are typically £40k or so, which would be at least double in London.

The media and government are only London centric (and now Greater Manchester because of Salford's Media City) for work. They might keep a temporary or second home bolt hole in London, but it's the Shires (and parts of the SW like Dorset) where the wealth is to be found.

The irony is that when the BBC moved up here, they moved to the 'nice bits' that they were surprised existed. They all moved to the same places and the house prices in those areas rocketed and forced a lot of the people who had always lived in that area out as a result of no longer being able to afford property there and not being able to compete with the purchasing power of those who bought in London and profitted from the soaring house prices there.

But many of those who did move up, never go to less affluent areas around here. They only mix with people like them, they only go to the nice places. They still have only limited exposure and awareness of depreivation and they are oblivious as to how their mass exodus affected the families who had been born here and grew up here. They don't even realise the simmering resentment of this.

Its remarkably blinkered.

Cheshire has the highest number of millionaires outside London. It can be every bit as many miles away in terms of being on another planet as London is for many deprieved communities in the NW despite being just 30 mins drive away.

There are huge numbers of very comfortable middle class up north too. But again they are ignored. I can give you examples of real people who have been dramatised for tv who have been 'working classed' for tv audiences purely because they are northern.

Its snobbery and ignorance. Its a way to make people feel better and to assert a heirachical status over others - especially when they are a desparately insecure underperforming public school boy.

@user1497207191 not true

Never mind, the UK is finished with Brexit anyway.

But to get back to the point of the thread. There is a lot of snobbiness around. And preconceived notions about other places, from those in the Home Counties mostly, with their pearls and twinsets in a twist at the mere mention of anything North of Watford Gap. lol.

@Jules585

Discussing the clear north south divide in Covid cases/restrictions with various people and often hear comments like ‘Well there’s a higher risk where there’s higher levels of deprivation/poorer areas etc.’, ‘poorer people and ethnic minorities worst affected’- suggesting in basic terms that there’s more Covid ‘up north’ as it’s poorer.

Now, don’t get me wrong, I know that London is the centre of finance/business etc. and yes, there are a lot of very wealthy Londoners. House prices are obviously extortionate but they’ve been inflated for a number of reasons.

But WHY is there this classic ‘grim up north’ perspective of anything north of the Home Counties really?

Having lived in the north, as well as in London, I can honestly say I found parts of London immensely ‘grim’ and deprived, there are millions of people working in low paid, precarious jobs. A huge amount of ethnic diversity. Most people can only dream of owning a house and end up spending an extortionate amount of rent on tiny, sub-standard accommodation.

I know there are various ‘northern’ cities that are often viewed as grim - but my experience even of the most commonly slated cities is that they all have lovely parts, often much closer to countryside and people are able to live a much better standard of living as wages are fairly similar (which they actually are in a lot of sectors and areas of the U.K. now!) and they can actually afford to buy a proper house.

I know for a fact that there isn’t as much of a London vs everywhere else salary divide now - and a lot of people still commute to the major cities as well.

Where does this snobbery come from? Is it as obvious as fact that the Royals are based down south etc etc?

I went to an infamously posh/snobby university and the teasing, snobbery and often insulting attitudes to anyone north of about Oxford was awful and I look back in amazement.

Thoughts? Where does it stem from and why is it still a thing?

Your unconscious bias is quite revealing. Is “A huge amount of ethnic diversity,” synonymous with grimness? I thought this outdated thinking was on its way out.

I do agree that you can have a better quality of life on a lower wage on average in the north than the south on average though because of house prices.

I live in one of the most deprived cities in the north. I love it. My job would pay about the same no matter where I lived in the UK (aside from any inner London weightings). I can afford a house by the sea on my own and I have lots of disposable income. Had friends from down south with really bad impressions of my city until they’ve visited, and realised it’s really not as grim as they imagine. They also assumed I earned so much less money just because I’m up north.
I went on a group holiday last year all young professionals from London and surrounding areas and I was a bit shocked at how dismissive and horrified they were at the thought of “the north” whilst also complaining they’ve had to move out of inner London so they can finally afford to buy a small flat somewhere.

Could the 'grim up north' thing mean the weather rather than financial situation?

I also think it's partly because most northerners, particularly those in the media, who move down south do so for well paid jobs. Some have an ignorant notion of London and the south being full of wealth (and unicorns and dancing smiling happiness).They remain in a blissful middle-class bubble, therefore never seeing the reality of southern, particularly London, deprivation. Because they don't really experience it themselves.

@Lemonslimes99 no, that was in relation to the reasons as to why Covid is more rife in the north at the moment - perception seems to be because of immigrant areas, ethnic minority numbers etc when London is just as, if not more, diverse.

I can see how the way I’ve written it looks like a reason for somewhere being grim. Not my intention.

There are some extremely posh parts of London ie Chelsea and a lot of property is owned by oversea investors. However a vast amount of London is relatively poor.
I don’t think it is London per se but the north south divide.

There IS more deprivation etc in the north. We have established that beyond doubt now.

The perception of grimness does come from the fact that there IS on average more grimness.

However, I do accept that there are still v wealthy (and v beautiful) areas of the north. As others have said Cheshire footballing territory comes to mind as do places like Harrogate and York.

The representations of the north on the media tend to focus on Coronation Street Salford rather than leafy Cheshire though. And that is parttly because the media has historically been based in London and the influencers are largely there.

That is starting to change maybe and shows like that one with Sarah Lancashire come to mind.

@nostaples, yes, grammars in Trafford but only Trafford.

I’m not arguing over the stats I’m just saying that stats often don’t give the bigger picture and in fact help perpetuate the views held by many in the SE that the North is cheap and grim and you can’t get a decent job or a decent education. The NW especially is often thought of as the Badlands.

Also, Many inner city London schools are superb these days. Not so 20yrs ago when people moved out to avoid them.

@nostaples

For example the Coronavirus hotspots at the moment are in Bolton, Bradford and Oldham.

Areas of high deprivation and also high immigration.

You might want to have a look at how Warrington is doing... Its split north and south with one of the highest levels of disparity in the country between the two half separated by the ship canal.

The south is very affluent. The north very poor. But if you look at where cases are, its surprisingly even and if anything my suspicion is that come next week the south might look like a particularly bad hot spot in the same way that 'v v nice' Hale did a few weeks back.

There is very LITTLE immigration here. The same is true of Newton Le Willows which is not affluent but also not the most deprieved around in St Helens and the surrounding areas by any stretch of the imagination.

Its becoming unhelpful to say that covid hotspots are only places which are high deprivation and high immigration because this is lulling more affluent places into a false sense of security. In reality the difference ends up being not the number of cases but the number of fatalities. The affluent areas just contribute to transmission but its the poor areas that suffer the consequences because they have poor health and less access to early intervention with health care.

Yy to the weather. The bloody rain!

BTW I live in the north (in quite a nice part but my nearest town is particularly shitty) but have lived in shitty parts of London and fairly shitty parts of Essex as well as lovely places on the south coast.

@RedToothBrush
I'm so slow at phone typing I posted before I saw your post.

I think we've noticed the same issue. Whether it's middle-class southerners moving to Greater Manchester, or middle-class northerners moving to London/the south, they stay in a relatively middle-class bubble. They rarely venture outside of this to see the extreme deprivation just beyond their safe bubble.

Media City in Salford and pushing Manchester as the 'Northern powerhouse' means locals there are now experiencing what Londoners have been suffering for years. Being priced away from their home city, away from their families and support networks. The poorer always lose out. I doubt many people resentful of the 'investment' in the south, and now Manchester, would envy it if they actually found themselves on the sharp end of it.

Because there’s more wealth in the South! There’s some grim parts but generally the south is more affluent with more expensive housing, higher salaries. Not surprising though as it’s close to London

I'm afraid a lot of the NW is the badlands and it's going to get a lot worse. I live here and the northern towns like Bolton, Oldham, Rochdale are bloody awful.

But nobody is saying that there aren't lovely places too.

Manchester and Leeds are great cities. There are some great villages and small towns within commuting distance.

I have genuinely had a friend's bellend of a husband tell me he would never come and visit us up north even if we had a fence and security to keep out the poor people.

It was fine by me tbh as he was a wanker but he really did have that much of an issue with the north despite never getting past Birmingham due to his bigotry.