live streamed funeral without my permission

[geeta2002]

my father in law died two weeks ago of terminal cancer, we held his funeral yesterday and as a family decided not to live stream his funeral, all the people that mattered to him and supported us as a family attended. His dying wish was that he didn't want his ex-wife who he hated to attend the funeral, but she phoned the crematorium up and managed to get the live stream set up without our permission. She then passed this onto 'family and friends'.
Myself, my husband and my sister-in-law are very strict with 'broadcasting' our children over social media or any form of streaming over the internet yet this was done again without our permission. My husband is ready to sue the crematorium but do we have a leg to stand on?

You can exclude people from funerals

I’ve seen it, strangely enough, two burly guys employed by the undertaker, to keep out unwanted guests.

I always think funerals are for the living, rather than the dead, if that makes sense?

If it helps, I had to watch my grandfather’s funeral on a live stream because it was during lockdown. I could barely see any of the congregation and my husband didn’t recognise my mum at all, as we could only see the back of her head and it was some time since she’d visited the hairdresser. So I don’t think it’s worth fretting about your children’s privacy being compromised.

Also, as it’s a live stream, people would have had to have been invested enough to tune in at the time of the actual event. I get that it’s a horribly upsetting time but as you can’t go back and make this ‘unhappen’ you should try to move on.

Your FIL may have hated his ex wife, but life is complicated, there is rarely one arch baddie in any given situation, and surely she has the right to grieve over someone she was once married to? Your FIL is never going to find out, after all.

Hello OP

I am sorry for your loss

There isn't a UK-wide rule for live-streaming funeral services; local councils have interpreted the guidelines differently. Have you checked the specific circumstances for the area where the funeral was held?

I've 'attended' three funerals and one wedding during lockdown. For the funeral services (two church, one crematorium) the camera was in a fixed position and showed a single shot of the lecturn/pulpit. The edge of the coffin could just be seen. Only people who came up to read were on camera.

I would assume the set-up was similar, i.e the crematorium had a small, fixed camera? You wouldn't see the camera in my own church even if you knew where to look, so I understand why it wasn't spotted/queried on the day.

The funeral director should be able to tell you exactly what was broadcast. Hopefully they will be able to reassure you regarding your children being on the footage.

Again the guidelines may have been interpreted differently, but I believe that all funeral service live-streams must be protected by a username and password. It's given to the person who paid for the funeral, meaning it's their choice whether or not to share it.

If the live-stream was username/password protected, the company will have records showing how many times it was accessed and from which IP addresses. You won't be able to find out which individual people they belong to, but you'd know how many people watched the service.

I think it would be best if you asked the funeral director to make these enquiries to the crematorium on your behalf (who gave permission for the live-stream or is it a local council rule that all funerals are streamed, who was given the username/password etc.)

I don't believe there are grounds for a legal claim, however the crematorium should definitely investigate and apologise if the guidelines/rules have not been followed correctly.

One final thought - are you SURE the ex saw a live-stream of the funeral and isn't trying to wind you up? This is exactly the sort of thing my abusive ex would have done.

Make a written complaint to the crematorium. They'll apologize. Done.

Don't waste your time and money getting legal advice on this.

I'd imagine the camera would be set up at the back to show the Coffin and people doing the readings &c..Probably will be very hard to make out who is who in the Congregation.

Strange that his ex wife wanted to go, if he hated her so?

My FIL died, {ex husband's dad} but I had kept in touch with in laws after divorce...but specifically asked if it was OK to go to the Service with DS..

The person whose Funeral it is {FIL in OP's instance} needs their wishes upheld, though.

Bit cheeky of Ex Wife to do this without asking first.

while it maybe "public" in that sense -broadcasting or filming it is totally different & presumably comes under privacy laws- I think I would approach the crem & ask but please be as calm as you can. Was she still married to him? because than that does make a difference legally & how ever you view her she was his wife in the past & she could have still held affection for him.
Funerals & deaths & wills (or their lack) cause enormous amounts of stress & anger & upset at the worst possible times in our lives. Basically we are emotionally vulnerable

My understanding is that weddings (at least the ceremony part) are public due to the need to prevent forced weddings, bride kidnaps etc.
However I can’t see that logic applying to funerals. Where does it say that legally they have to be open to members of the public ?

When I watched a livestreamed funeral, which was pre-covid for someone who had friends all over the world, all you could see was the coffin, the minister and the people who stood up to give speeches. You occasionally saw the back of someone's head when they moved around, but couldn't have identified them.

I think it's worth putting in a written complaint to the crem and see if they need to change their procedures. But I don't think you'll get much out of legal action.

My understanding is that weddings (at least the ceremony part) are public due to the need to prevent forced weddings, bride kidnaps etc.

And so that people can object to prevent bigamous marriages. Funerals are not legally binding.

It almost seems like you as a family are carrying on their feud even after your fil has died. Whilst you may be right that they should have asked, they are unlikely to have done so intentionally and in all likelihood thought they were helping family members who couldn't attend. Taking any form of legal action would be very odd and would be lashing out at a stranger in the name of a family argument. Maybe you should as a family be trying to draw a line under this bit of family history.

The crematorium is definitely at fault. A private funeral in a private location can refuse access to people and that would include digital access.

What TheQueef said.

All very controlling and petty of you all given that someone has died. It’s all finished now. She probably needed closure. Glad you’re not my family (or my ex’s!).

How do you know this actually happened OP? And its not the ex wife causing a lot of bother?

I’m so sorry for your loss.

I think you need to be clear about who you are holding responsible for this error. Your contract would have been with the funeral director, who took your instructions for the funeral. They then, presumably, passed these on to the crematorium. Before you start looking into suing the crematorium, you need to talk to the funeral director, to find out whether they, or the crematorium staff, made the decision on the live stream. It might have be that the funeral director has to take this up on your behalf, since that’s who your contract was with.

If it helps you to focus your discussion, nobody would have seen your children’s faces. I attended my aunt’s funeral via live stream last week, and have seen others previously. There is a single fixed camera at the back of the room, trained on the coffin and lectern. The backs of the heads of the people in the first row were visible, but nothing else apart from the coffin and the speakers. A live stream also isn’t a recording, so you can rest assured that nobody is continuing to watch after the event.

It might, therefore, be prudent not to make your children’s privacy a significant part of your discussion with the funeral director, but to concentrate on the fact that your instructions were specifically not followed.

But ultimately, you have to decide what you want to get out of this. Suing whoever is responsible won’t stop the people you wanted to exclude having seen the funeral. Nor will it stop a deceased person being dead. It won’t assuage your grief. The anger you’re feeling now is all bound up in the grieving process. Ask yourselves if it’s worth going through all the stress this will cause, and what you’re looking for as an outcome, before you decide what to do next.

Unless you and all the other guests were told explicitly that this was a public event that Would be filmed/broadcast, they have made a massive mistake...

I used to organise events for charities and things like art exhibitions and we would make it very clear in advance whether we would be taking pictures or filming ,so that people had a chance to let us know they did not want to appear in any footage. We also would have signs throughout whatever venue we were using.

It might be a public place/events but people should also have a say on how their image is used. I would not want anyone to film my grief behind my back and then show it on social media...

Saying it is is a public place and anyone can attend is one aspect but that does not mean a company can just decide to film you and circulate the footage...Those are two separate matters.

The other issue is we do not know who she gave the link to, that was why we didn't live stream it in the first place because we did not trust her.
What exactly are you afraid of here?! What on earth do you think she's going to do with it? Who, outside of relatives or friends, is going to be remotely interested? It's over-egging it a bit to worry about who she's shared it with, unless you're in witness protection or something.

I can understand that you're very upset tho and I'm sorry for your loss

This is really awful op; it's such a painful intrusion. That was such a hurtful thing to do.

In general though, I do think funerals should be as inclusive as possible but obviously it's very different if you are protecting the wishes of the deceased.

One could argue that, in normal times, anyone could walk in to a church, but that's very different to someone having a permanent record that you don't, and one that can be shared everywhere and anywhere (not sure if this is possible or not with a live streaming though).

Not as serious as flouting the wishes of a deceased loved one, but my wedding was filmed many moons ago without my permission and against my wishes, and I was very upset about it, although I was unaware at the time as I didn't think anyone would go against my wishes. When I protested afterwards (politely) I was told dismissively "oh you will feel differently about it later" but 26 yrs on, no I don't. It was a nuptial mass and I didn't feel it was appropriate to film it then, or now. I felt the same re: DC baptisms communions and confirmations too. All the parents wielding the phones and cameras detract from the event itself imho. A film is very different to a photograph somehow.

Eight or so years ago, a child guest at one of my dc's birthday parties, filmed part of the proceedings on a tablet without asking permission (and I was so busy sorting games etc I didn't twig what was happening). We've got nothing to hide but imagine my shock when, at school, ten months later, at a "year end assembly" attended by parents, my sitting room appeared on an enormous screen and that bit of footage was shown as part of a "happy moments" montage. All again without my knowledge in or permission. It demonstrated how intrusions of privacy can so easily happen, and that's when there's no mal-intent involved, never mind when someone is mischief-making or over-stepping boundaries.

Were other people on the banned list, op? What does it actually matter at this point who managed to see it? This is paranoia, tbh.

I don’t think you should be looking to sue- I sincerely doubt anyone would take on your case anyway.

What are you suing for? Who is doing the suing? Your DH, your FIL’s estate? How much are you suing for 10p? £50 £5000?! I think you get my point.

I think you should absolutely calmly raise this with the crematorium and the funeral director. I would expect a sincere apology from them and I’d graciously accept it and then try and move on from this.

Sorry for your family’s loss.

Excellent advice from AdoptAdaptImprove.

@OhCaptain

Is there a GDPR issue here? It seems mad that anyone could ring up and have someone's private ceremony broadcast over the internet!

GDPR doesn't cover data processed for personal or domestic reasons, which would usually include funerals.

@TheQueef

Public ceremony. She could have attended in person.

Not with current Covid rules, surely?

If you'd ever been involved in civil litigation you wouldn't be suggesting suing anyone. Have a grumble and then go out into the garden and burn £5000 in £20 paper notes and move on with your lives. That will be cheaper and less stressful than engaging in legal action.

Grief leaks out in all sorts of ways and people often look for something to get wound up about in order to distract from the bleakness of loss. I suggest your husband is saying this to avoid having to deal with his pain. Easier to be angry than sad. Was it his mother he would have banned from the service? What's going on there? Please stop using your children as pawns (was that what happened with your husband and his mum and dad?) and behave like adults.

Echo all everyone has said about funerals being public events and streamed services give a very limited view of the event in my experience. Fixed camera showing the coffin, the celebrant and anyone who gets up to speak at the lectern at the two I have seen. Your ex MiL could have come and brought all her friends if it wasn't for Covid. You didn't even have to see her, let alone be polite.

No one can control the world from beyond the grave. It's quite a good lesson to learn. It's happened. No harm done. Let it go and get on with your grieving properly.

When you sue, you sue for damages. I think you’d really struggle to make a case for any damages here. You can certainly complain and make it clear to the funeral directors and the crem that family wishes on this need to be respected.