Furlough holiday

[MrsQGinglass]

I am furloughed still and work for a large international company. There are only a few off us still furloughed 2 in my office only.

I received an informing me that all holiday from last year that was carried over would have to be used in the October. I know the reason why it is cheaper for them to get part of the government to pay it.
My issue is that those that have not been furloughed are allowed to carry over their holiday for the next 2 years.
I really do not think this is fair as they are treating us differently.
I have contacted HR for clarification but they have not answered my emails.
Is this lawful.
AIBUto think that they are treating us unfairly.

Yes, your employer can state when you take your annual leave.
I think this is fair and what my company has done otherwise all those who were furloughed would take annual leave when they get back and those who have worked through (often without taking any leave) wouldn't be able to take theirs. However, they are not allowing holiday to be carried over by anyone and so some people have had to have the whole of December off.
It is a nightmare for employers to resolve.

I have worked through lockdown whilst most of my colleagues are on furlough. I picked up their work during that time on top of my own. Due to the work load I was not able to take a proper holiday. I have had 5 days leave since Christmas and have routinely worked overtime in evenings and weekends to keep the business running. If my colleagues had come back and asked for annual leave I would have completely lost it. No way should I have to cover their work, again, after they’ve been dossing around for 5 months.

@ivfbeenbusy Great if you did avoid/save on those costs but there are so many people who won't have been affected by those things at all. For example, my previous employer ran a free bus from the city centre (which I walked to) to get to the office as it was out of the way. Like most people I still have to eat whether I'm at home or whether I'm at work. Not everyone owns their home, and those renting, especially privately, weren't afforded a holiday or any leniency. It's unlikely people were able to change contracts and most have a hefty cancellation fee, and other bills like electric, gas and a few others went up unsurprisingly.

The situation is rubbish for everyone and we are all making sacrifices. This is quite correct. Look at the bigger picture OP and do your bit.

@ivfbeenbusy

funnily enough my bills did not go down

Presumably you are saving on commuting costs, fuel in the car, lunches whilst at work
You would also have been able to take a 3 month mortgage holiday which you could have extended with most banks....

I was both furloughed and then came back early when most of my colleagues stayed on it.
100% furlough is easier and less stressful than being back at work. Cheaper too

No my commute costs have not gone down as I cycled to work. Lunches have still stayed the same. Mortgage holiday I was not allowed one as I had just re mortgaged and these were offered to everyone. How many times to I have to say only 10 % were furloughed and I am sorry that if my colleagues had to work more they then need to speak to management to ask why colleagues are still furloughed.

@seventhrow that's not the fault of your colleagues. Your company shouldn't have furloughed them if there was still work for them, the whole point of furlough is that there would otherwise be no work.

Hahaha I did not make up the rules, I would love to be at work, I would love to have been working

You are missing the point again. When I said I would be delighted to receive £2500 for nothing, I was making the point that I would have been counting my blessings, glad to have not been made redundant not complaining.

OP every single poster on this thread (other than one who is being compassionate about your situation) is saying that your company are being fair. And definitely legal.

I’d listen to everyone here, not make a complaint to HR, accept it and move on.

Your employer is acting legally. The End.

My company does not allow annual leave to be carried over unless you can show that there is a business reason why you could not take it during the past year.

So some employees (those who can show a business reason) are allowed to carry holiday over, but no one else is. No one thinks this is unfair.
Would it help you, OP, to think of it more like that, rather than furloughed vs non-furloughed?

I think you are being unreasonable. I was furloughed and our company asked us all to take as much annual leave as possible because they wouldn’t be able to afford to have staff returning from furlough taking holiday. We all should do our bit to help keep company’s afloat so we have jobs to return to.

Of course it's legal and of course it's fair. I would kill to have had the last 6 months off on furlough on 80% of pay (or 100% like my sister) instead of the grim and relentlessly heavy workload. And furloughed sister complained about having to do one training day in last x6 months of furlough!

I'm not an employment lawyer but work with some, and I'd be interested to get their view on it. Absolutely an employer can tell an employee when to take holiday. However I think they're on a potentially sticky wicket if all the people left on furlough are women with children, for example (that's assuming they aren't the ones driving it, which from what you've said it doesn't seem the case). It might then be possible to argue they are discriminating against a sector of their workforce - but as I say you'd need an employment lawyer to advise on it really.
However also do agree you would be putting your head above the parapet if you push this one and only you know if you have the money / time / energy to carry it through should there be a case here.

@SantaClaritaDiet

MrsQGinglass common sense is not unlawful.

If your role was clearly not essential as you are STILL on furlough in September, it's only a small step away from being redundant entirely.

People who dare complaining about their holidays whilst spending months chilling out at home are top of the list, because it really wouldn't be FAIR not to reward team players and assets to the company.

Thanks goodness I am nothing like you.

Jesus Christ - the entitlement you have is astounding! You’ve been home, doing nothing and getting paid while colleagues have had to work, and now you’re begrudging them a bit of flexibility for leave?! God you sounds like hard work.

Yes you have to treat people equally at work! You can't favour one person over the other.

Nope. To echo previous posters, fair treatment is not the same as equal treatment.

The change of rules around holiday carryover due to covid doesn't mean that employers have to let people carry over more holiday for the next two years. It's up to the employer.

Essentially, your employer is making you stick to the normal carryover rules - not putting you in any worse position than normal, just choosing not to offer you additional carryover. To make sure you get opportunity to take all your leave this year, they're enforcing some leave in October before you return so that it works best for business requirements. That's perfectly reasonable.

There are some other people at your organisation who they have chosen to let carry forward more holiday because they are in a different situation to you, having worked all year and not had the same chance to take annual leave. Again, this is reasonable.

Nothing about this is discriminatory.

I understand that furlough hasn't been a happy time for many and I'm sorry that this has been a hard year, but it hasn't been a walk in the park for employers either. If you were struggling on the reduced income you could have asked to use some holiday in the last few months to top up your earnings and at least you'll get full pay for the period in October you're on annual leave so there is some positive to this.

Also, on this:

they can't use your grievances against you.

They can't explicitly use a grievance as a reason to select for redundancy, but in reality it's not hard to design a scoring matrix that keeps the people you want and makes sure that the pain in the bum team members end up at the bottom of the list.

I've worded a bit of that badly. My point was that if the employer is the one only selecting eg women with children to be the ones on furlough (ie it's not the women choosing to be) then I think it could be a bit less clear.

OP, literally everyone on this thread is telling you YABU. Even the ones who have been furloughed like myself. Doesn't that tell you something?

@hellywelly3

I think you are being unreasonable. I was furloughed and our company asked us all to take as much annual leave as possible because they wouldn’t be able to afford to have staff returning from furlough taking holiday. We all should do our bit to help keep company’s afloat so we have jobs to return to.

My point is if they had asked everyone to take holiday I would be completely ok with it. Some people have returned from furlough and have been given 2 years to take their holiday someone in the business is carrying over 13 days.

I think you need to see the bigger picture here. I keep seeing threads about furlough and I'm not sure everyone grasps that this was a scheme to save jobs. Had it not been in place you would have probably been made redundant and would have then been living on redundancy money and state benefits. Considerably less than the £2500 capped monthly furlough wage.

I haven't been furloughed, I've taken a pay cut, and I've continued working as part of a skeleton staff and have only managed 5 days leave since March as we've been in business continuity planning since Covid hit. I am shattered and need a break. But I still feel massive empathy for the 500 people we did furlough, 250 of whom were recently made redundant because the demand for our business has reduced.

I am sure furlough must have been mentally and financially hard, many members of my family are in hospitality and some are still furloughed now, but surely you can see that after being off work for all this time it really is unreasonable to think that you should be able to carry a load of annual leave when you could have been made unemployed instead. If times are hard financially then surely getting full pay for a few weeks would be of benefit? A lot of companies are asking people to use annual leave at the moment.

You sound really stressed out OP, and I'm not sure this thread is helping. Have you got any support for your mental health?

As others have said, what they're doing is lawful. But that doesn't mean it has to feel fair to you. Yes, furlough means you're not working but it's difficult to plan anything joyful when you're so anxious about whether you can cover your bills or whether you'll have a job in a few months. Look after yourself and I hope you get some more positive news soon.

I can't understand employees objecting to this. A few of our employees have. It makes me cross.

If you've been on furlough for the last six months I can't understand why you would object to the company asking you to take /use up your holiday.

Of course it's cheaper for the companies do this and to force you to use up before the furlough period ends at the end of October.

Is it lawful? Yes.

MrsQGinglass
nothing like me who would refuse to discriminate against the people who have NOT been put on furlough?

I am not wishing you any bad, I am just telling you to be realistic. Your company hasn't needed you for the last few months, it's not a great position and complaining about your colleagues holidays is being ridiculous at this point.

Barbara in Accounts Probably been working like a dog and hasn't had any time off since March!

I know I have!!

It is lawful, but regardless of what people on here think, it isn't 'fair' in the true sense of the word as you are being treated differently from those working.

My employer said everyone would take the holidays they had booked, whether working or furloughed, which basically covered the entire furlough period because we plan our holiday rota so far in advance. That's 'fair' (though some of those working didn't agree, they wanted the furloughed to be penalised).

Perhaps suggest you 'use up' the amount of holiday entitlement you have acrrued pro rata during the furlough period. That would be reasonable I think.
So on statutory full time holiday allowance of 20 days per year that would be 11.5 days for seven months of furlough, rounded down to the nearest half day (as per ACAS guidance), leaving 8.5 days holiday to take. The public holidays that have passed should be deducted too.

There is a lot of hate on here and in real life for the furloughed, but it's not been one long holiday for anyone. People would be wise to remember that the furloughed had no choice in the matter, and be annoyed at their employer's decisions if they feel aggrieved, rather than their furloughed colleagues. Or vice versa as in this case.

My point is if they had asked everyone to take holiday I would be completely ok with it.
Some people have returned from furlough and have been given 2 years to take their holiday someone in the business is carrying over 13 days.

OP are you in HR?
You seem to know an awful lot of personal information about your work colleagues, especially from someone who is at home on furlough.