to be angry about 6th form's "shoulder's must be covered" policy

[randomname7208633]

I'm a dad of 4 (just putting that out there so there's no confusion) and this morning my dd (17) told me that yesterday, which was pretty hot here (not that that should matter,) she was told by a female member of staff that she had to either wear a coat all day or go home because her top had straps which made her shoulders visible.

Nothing else was uncovered and she was in no way indecent, she was just informed that shoulders had to be covered because otherwise (I know you can see this coming) it was "distracting to boys".

Apparently quite a few other girls were given the same warning that day (probably because it was the first really warm day since they'd been back to school and had all dressed according to the weather) and then a school wide announcement was made.

I've checked the uniform policy and there's no mention of it so I've emailed the school asking for clarification.

If this is indeed a policy that's being enforced I think it's ridiculous that female students are being made to dress in ways to suit male students. If a boy is distracted by girl's shoulders then the problem is with the boy! The messages this sends out just make me smh. It's 2020 and girls are having to think about how their clothes might make boys (and by extension, men) react. Argh!!!

Dress codes exist mainly to control what women wear They are far more restrictive than they are for men, especially those which define jewellery, make up, shoe types etc. We should stop judging people by the type of clothes they wear.

^ this! This is it in a nutshell.

We always wore a school summer dress with that top bit of sleeves like a polo T shirt. I think that's a reasonable requirement for a uniform (and a long sleeved shirt once the weather is worse.

Exactly. I wear whatever I want and I’ve always worn whatever I want, but obviously if I’m attending a event or occasion that has a very specific dress code (like wearing black to a funeral, or wearing a head covering for a certain type of religious covering, or removing shoes when entering a Mosque or gurdwara or private homes in Japan) I’ll follow that dress code. If I’m in Italy in the middle of summer I’ll be in steeply tops but will our a shawl on to go inside a historic church. Surely that’s what everyone does?

It’s strange that people think making a minor adjustment to your clothing to suit the rules or norms of your environment is so incredibly confusing and difficult that people need to spend years from childhood on being trained how to do it.

It’s really not hard.

@hammeringinmyhead if I had been allowed to dress how I want as a teenager I would have ruined my hair and body with dyes and tattoos and piercings! As a result I did it when I was a bit older and now of course regret every hole and black line, but it isn’t as bad as it might have been if I had been allowed to do it during school! (Got my first tatt at 15 so age itself wasn’t an issue). Maybe I’m projecting my own idiocies onto younger people but I’m SO glad things were strict otherwise god knows what else I would have done!

@purpleboy

Who made you the thread police *@CasuallyMasculine*? Can you point me in the direction of the rules that state you can't start a thread before you go to work?

Can you point me in the direction of the part of my post where I said you can’t start a thread before you go to work?

Oh well , as we are playing the "pick the post apart game" ...

How on earth would a 16 yr old know what this is? It's different in every workplace for a start.

They could try listening to what the teaching is tell them.

They are not at work or "in a professional context".

They are in a professional context in that they are there to work ie they are in a work setting not a personal setting.

OP has already said - no it isn't. They have several pages about uniform for Y7-11 but nothing specific for sixth form and certainly no mention of shoulders.

OP has said he has e-mailed the school to clarify the situation so he obviously isn't sure.

As far as OP knows this is not a rule since it's not included in the uniform policy.

We don't know for sure yet until it's clarified and anyway, school rules always evolve in response to specific situations. My teen's school rules definitely contain a line about spaghetti straps etc so it's not particularly unusual.

@CasuallyMasculine

There's quite a few posts I'd like to respond to individually but I'm at work now so might not get chance.

What made you decide to post on this topic just before you set off for work and were therefore unable to clarify anything in your OP, I wonder?

Things contained in my OP:

• my dd was told that her shoulders could not be visible

• my dd said the teacher told her it was to prevent distracting boys

• I checked the school's dress code and found is no mention of this policy

• I emailed the school and asked for clarification

• I concluded by saying that "if" this was a policy and "if" the responsibility for male thoughts and behaviour was being placed on female students then this was wrong.

So... What exactly do you think needed clarification and what is your problem with the time I posted? Quite simply, I posted just after my DD told me.

Maybe you could "clarify" what you're really trying to say here?

@randomname7208633 definitely agree with your comments RE distracting for boys, unacceptable attitude towards both the girls and the boys.

I don't think strappy tops are professional and so I don't think they should be worn in offices or schools. Same goes for flip flops or hotpants.

However, no girl should be told that she can't wear something because it's distracting for the boys. Sort the boys out, don't restrict the girls.

I think it's fair enough for the school to insist that shoulders are covered and students wear something tantamount to what would be considered "dress down Friday wear" in a professional context. They are in school to study after all.

They’ll be utterly screwed at college or university then, if “professional dress” is needed to study well.

Maybe you could "clarify" what you're really trying to say here?

Sorry, OP, I took your statement that you were off to work and wouldn’t be able to reply as meaning you wouldn’t be able to log into mumsnet while you were working, but I can see that you have been able to after all.

Sorry, OP, I took your statement that you were off to work and wouldn’t be able to reply as meaning you wouldn’t be able to log into mumsnet while you were working, but I can see that you have been able to after all.

Oh would you get a life? These comments are pointless childish BS. He’ll reply when he can, so what?

I think it's silly to be honest. Schools need to start understanding that visible shoulders don't stop students learning. I appreciate that they want students to look well dressed, but you can be well dressed in a strappy top if you pair them well. I mean, I'd bring it up because of the boys comment. I might bring it up anyway, but I'm a bit impatient with the pointless restrictions of school non-uniform. There are few adults who go on to not dress appropriately for work, also many work places are relaxing the way you dress. Obviously, there are exceptions, for example a lawyer has to follow a dress code, or in Journalism you should dress smartly when going to interview someone. However, most adults are happy to comply because they want that job - school giving silly rules like 'no strappy tops' or 'girls mustn't wear shorts' is just pointless. IME, it also tends to cause issues with students who are hard enough to keep in school, creating more opportunities for detention/getting in trouble etc. They tend to rock out the 'teaches children to follow uniform policy as you would for work', though many grow up to be in roles where dressing smartly in not required - or even silly! (Imagine teaching people to kayak wearing a suit, or mucking out a stable in one, or painting in a smart dress.) Equally, those who need to dress smartly at work use common sense. And obviously, the rules are - quite often - still sexist. (Both ways at times, eg. no stud for boys but girls can wear studs/no shorts for girls.)

Wait for the response from the School. Pointless getting all het up about something until you have the full facts, not just those from your daughter.

They’ll be utterly screwed at college or university then, if “professional dress” is needed to study well.

School and university have a completely different dynamic as you well know. The students are younger for one thing, and in a well run sixth form, the students are aware that they are setting a standard for younger pupils.

I don't think strappy tops are professional and so I don't think they should be worn in offices or schools

Offices and schools aren’t the same environments with the same rules.

Offices aren’t the only place people work. It seems arbitrary to make office dress what schools should mirror.

Not all offices have strict dress codes. Plenty do not. The excuse therefore isn’t really standing up to scrutiny anymore and schools should adapt with society around this. Universities don’t have these policies.

If the school has a uniform policy it wants to enforce, it obviously has to publish it and ensure awareness.

I don't see a problem with a covered shoulders policy providing it's applied to everyone. If you don't like one teacher's attempt to explain it, you really shouldn't be asking why. It's pretty obvious to me.

Having shoulders covered is absolutely standard. It's not about restricting girls, it's about dressing appropriately for the setting. She isn't going to a beach or a party, she's going to school.

I think you're wasting your time. Why doesn't she just wear an appropriate top?

Business attire for the last couple of decades in the City has meant a sleeveless body con dress and stilettos so where does the no shoulders thing come in?

I’m curious as to when this idea of “dress codes” became common. We didn’t have one at 6th form/college (South East, early 2000s). Some 6th forms had uniforms, others were wear what you want. I don’t recall anyone male or female ever being threatened with being sent home for what they were wearing (friends of both sexes wore belly and vest tops, flip flops, dyed hair etc) It strikes me as a very socially conservative American thing.

Absolutely standard for what, sixth form? No it isn't.

I'm glad my 90's 6th form college allowed any clothing or hairstyle as long as it met health and safety requirements for the course being studied (hair tied back and no dangling scarves or jewellery for science for example) and was not indecent or offensive (so no swear words, very visible underwear etc.)

Casually your quite right you didn't state that, that was my interpretation of you unnecessary comment questioning why the op would post before going to work, insinuating there was a dubious reason behind it with the 'I wonder'

Surely the most valuable skill (related to clothing) is teaching young people to make their own decisions and judgement calls about what kind of clothing is appropriate for a particular situation? Marshalling them with overly restrictive dress codes denies them the opportunity to do that.

“Professional dress” will never be universal. To use the example someone gave of a journalist interviewing something: as a journalist you’d need to dress very differently depending on whether you were interviewing an MP or head of state, a celebrity or fashion designer, trying to doorstep a working class family who have been victim of a crime, get vox pops from protestors, or interviewing someone working in the middle of a jungle or desert.

Not teaching them to develop that ability for themselves does them no good.

Having shoulders covered is absolutely standard.

Standard where?

@randomname7208633 please do let us know what the reply from school is. Feeling very invested in this.

On a wider note, what I find extraordinary is the number of parents who believe their DSs might be distracted from learning by what the girls are wearing. Presumably these are the same DSs they are wanting to ‘prepare for work’ by making them wear suits. Many of these young men will end up in public facing roles. Perhaps becoming accustomed to working with girls who are less-than-totally-covered (ie dressed as they choose) might teach them to not be ‘distracted’ when they see them at work?

Just a reminder, women are not responsible for what men do.