to be angry about 6th form's "shoulder's must be covered" policy

[randomname7208633]

I'm a dad of 4 (just putting that out there so there's no confusion) and this morning my dd (17) told me that yesterday, which was pretty hot here (not that that should matter,) she was told by a female member of staff that she had to either wear a coat all day or go home because her top had straps which made her shoulders visible.

Nothing else was uncovered and she was in no way indecent, she was just informed that shoulders had to be covered because otherwise (I know you can see this coming) it was "distracting to boys".

Apparently quite a few other girls were given the same warning that day (probably because it was the first really warm day since they'd been back to school and had all dressed according to the weather) and then a school wide announcement was made.

I've checked the uniform policy and there's no mention of it so I've emailed the school asking for clarification.

If this is indeed a policy that's being enforced I think it's ridiculous that female students are being made to dress in ways to suit male students. If a boy is distracted by girl's shoulders then the problem is with the boy! The messages this sends out just make me smh. It's 2020 and girls are having to think about how their clothes might make boys (and by extension, men) react. Argh!!!

How many have you seen in spaghetti strapped tops, showing off their shoulders

That's a health and safety thing not a work thing....have you seen the claws on some of those critters? Also school didn't prepare her for being shat on by a meerkat either...maybe it should have in it's quest to prepare her for the world of work.

I went to an all girls school and we weren't allowed to have bare shoulders in sixth form. FWIW I wouldn't wear a sleeveless top to the office either. Nothing to do with distracting anyone, i just don't think it's professional to show so much skin. In the same way, it wouldn't a man or woman to come in wearing a pair of shorts.

@trappedsincesundaymorn I used to be a zoo keeper and in all the places I worked we had a strict uniform policy, not just for health and safety but because we were public facing. So in a way, it is relevant.

I used to work at the Natural History Museum and we regularly did cross-training and enrichment stuff with London Zoo. I’ve definitely seen women working in both places (some of them respected scientists) wearing shorts or strappy vest tops. Obviously not when around animals due to H&S and not when in public-facing roles, but when “backstage.”

Who made you the thread police @CasuallyMasculine? Can you point me in the direction of the rules that state you can't start a thread before you go to work?

I think it's fair enough for the school to insist that shoulders are covered and students wear something tantamount to what would be considered "dress down Friday wear" in a professional context. They are in school to study after all. Unless the boundaries are clearly stated and enforced, you get teens turning up in inappropriately short or skimpy clothing (and that applies to both sexes). Their reasons about "distracting the boys" is sexist though. It would have been better to say that inappropriate clothing on either sex is distracting from what they are all at school to do.

Presumably the dress code will be written down in the school rules somewhere? If I were you I'd be (a) grateful that your daughter is at a school where they care enough to enforce the rules (b) as a pp said, saving your ire for something more worthy. The head teacher has enough on his or her plate ATM fhs.

As for "The more successful and powerful you are the more clothing freedom you have" that may be true but at the beginning of their careers, these students, filling roles as trainees or interns, may well be confronted with rules about dress code.

So it was about the Male teachers.

Which is a way more worrying reason to ban them.

we don't want to see sweaty armpits

Better to see a bare armpit than a shirt/top soaked through with sweat.

Bare shoulders are unacceptable in the office/ workplace in my opinion for both men and women. Frankly I think as a woman there are far more acceptable smart outfits open to us than there are for men in hot weather.

The more successful and powerful you are the more clothing freedom you have. We should encourage our daughters to aspire to be scientists, CEOs, writers, artists, policy makers.
Unless you're working on international policy or actually at a level to be travelling the world for your organisation because, then, you will be following the dress code in the countries you visit. Your view of successful and powerful seems heavily skewed to a particular sector of Western society. Having worked with scientists, writers and policy makers and travelled with them, they do respect dress codes.

you are all missing the point completely! my daughter was told this exact same thing about skirt length, strappy tops because it distracts the boys! not because it is inappropriate for school - and this was for social events not lessons, they had a strict school uniform even in 6th form. the point is it is basically saying boys can't control themselves and girls should dress to address this problem rather than boys need to address their behaviour - seriously if you can't see what is wrong with that you have a problem!

[quote WildAboutMyPlanet]@trappedsincesundaymorn I used to be a zoo keeper and in all the places I worked we had a strict uniform policy, not just for health and safety but because we were public facing. So in a way, it is relevant.[/quote]
It wasn't smart business attire though was it? So my point about enforcing that on 16-18 year olds as a way of "preparing them for work" still stands. Many jobs don't require you to wear such clothes so why the need to enforce it on the pretext that that is how everybody dresses when working?

Your view of successful and powerful seems heavily skewed to a particular sector of Western society.

I’m not from a Western country...

Of course it's about degrees of modesty. Where would you draw the line? Boys in speedos and girls in string bikinis?

Horses for courses... what's acceptable on a beach isn't what's acceptable in a night club, in an office blah blah.

Covering shoulders is just a point on a scale.

MintyMabel

So it was about the Male teachers.

Which is a way more worrying reason to ban them.

Yes you’re right especially as said school had just dealt with a teacher sex grooming scandal that occurred over decades

students wear something tantamount to what would be considered "dress down Friday wear" in a professional context.

How on earth would a 16 yr old know what this is? It's different in every workplace for a start.

They are in school to study after all.

Exactly. They are not at work or "in a professional context".

Presumably the dress code will be written down in the school rules somewhere?

OP has already said - no it isn't. They have several pages about uniform for Y7-11 but nothing specific for sixth form and certainly no mention of shoulders.

where they care enough to enforce the rules

As far as OP knows this is not a rule since it's not included in the uniform policy.

Why are we assuming we're preparing kids to work in corporate environments where strict dress codes are enforced. There has been a big drive to get girls especially into stem subjects where they are probably not going to be in an office environment.
As an aside it makes me laugh on The Apprentice when their task is based in a factory or farm and they turn up in their power suits.
I went to 6th form college in the late 1990s. I cant remember what the dress restrictions were but they cant have been too strict, I think I wore mostly hippyish stuff - I've never owned a business suit in my life.
Now I working creative industry, and I wear what I want - vest tops, cold shoulder tops, short denim shorts, jeans, flip flops etc. If I am meeting a client I dress slightly more smartly.
DD was told to wear non uniform before the summer holidays but so few of her clothes met the requirements she said she'd rather wear uniform (and she dresses pretty conservatively- think baggy jeans or a skirt with a tshirt that finishes an inch above the waistband...but that's cropped and therefore unacceptable)

@trappedsincesundaymorn no it was shirts and suits but you had to keep everything smart, clean, you had to have bits covered, some wouldn’t accept tattoos or hairstyles or jewellery or make up etc. It’s about learning how to abide by a company policy. I have seen people come to work in unsuitable attire and then complain even though they signed a contract that agreed to that attire. If you tell kids your can wear whatever you like, it’s freedom, express yourself’ then you aren’t strong them up for the truth about a lot of work places. I’m not saying blazers, shirts and ties, but if the school say ‘no vests’ or ‘no trainers’ for example, then these are good rules to teach kids that in the future there might be restrictions.

No one has answered my question about whether Bardot tops are appropriate office wear!

*wasnt suits etc

[quote WildAboutMyPlanet]@trappedsincesundaymorn no it was shirts and suits but you had to keep everything smart, clean, you had to have bits covered, some wouldn’t accept tattoos or hairstyles or jewellery or make up etc. It’s about learning how to abide by a company policy. I have seen people come to work in unsuitable attire and then complain even though they signed a contract that agreed to that attire. If you tell kids your can wear whatever you like, it’s freedom, express yourself’ then you aren’t strong them up for the truth about a lot of work places. I’m not saying blazers, shirts and ties, but if the school say ‘no vests’ or ‘no trainers’ for example, then these are good rules to teach kids that in the future there might be restrictions.[/quote]

Quite

@user1471600850

you are all missing the point completely! my daughter was told this exact same thing about skirt length, strappy tops because it distracts the boys! not because it is inappropriate for school - and this was for social events not lessons, they had a strict school uniform even in 6th form. the point is it is basically saying boys can't control themselves and girls should dress to address this problem rather than boys need to address their behaviour - seriously if you can't see what is wrong with that you have a problem!

They are, aren't they? And sleeveless tops for women fall well within the realms of normal, unremarkable attire. If boys are going to be distracted by seeing bare shoulders, that's really something they need to work on: they are not going to be able to control the attire of the women around them out in the world. I have my doubts as to whether this is a genuine problem rather than something the teacher concerned has come up with, but if it is then the sixth form would do better to support those affected individuals in managing their issue.

I think you need to clarify if there is a /what the dress code is. DC's school has a separate sixth form dress code that was advised directly to students, so you may not be aware of it.

Their dress code says (I've summarised for clarity)

• Smart tops with short or long sleeves
• Open shoulder, thin strapped or cropped tops must only be worn under a jacket or cardigan

And that applies equally to girls and boys.

Some of you have very low opinions of teenagers. Why does "learning about office wear" mean having to wear it for 2 years? They do work experience. Many of them have part time retail jobs with uniform. Just tell them that you may have a dress code at work. Job done.

The OP has clarified. There isn't. Try reading the OP's posts @RedskyAtnight

If you tell kids your can wear whatever you like, it’s freedom, express yourself’ then you aren’t strong them up for the truth about a lot of work places.

This is a bullshit argument. Why do we assume children are stupid and expect the rules of childhood to apply throughout their entire lives? There are lots of rules that change between childhood and adulthood, most are able to adapt as they grow up and function perfectly well, but we think we need to teach them from 5 years old that dressing a certain way is necessary because there will be a dress code at work? It also makes little sense as most of the schools I know relax the dress code in the upper 5th/6th years, then we send them to uni in ripped jeans and t-shirts. Surely if preparing them for work was the reason we have dress codes, they would be lax aged 5 and we’d have uniforms in Uni.

Dress codes exist mainly to control what women wear They are far more restrictive than they are for men, especially those which define jewellery, make up, shoe types etc. We should stop judging people by the type of clothes they wear.