to be angry about 6th form's "shoulder's must be covered" policy

[randomname7208633]

I'm a dad of 4 (just putting that out there so there's no confusion) and this morning my dd (17) told me that yesterday, which was pretty hot here (not that that should matter,) she was told by a female member of staff that she had to either wear a coat all day or go home because her top had straps which made her shoulders visible.

Nothing else was uncovered and she was in no way indecent, she was just informed that shoulders had to be covered because otherwise (I know you can see this coming) it was "distracting to boys".

Apparently quite a few other girls were given the same warning that day (probably because it was the first really warm day since they'd been back to school and had all dressed according to the weather) and then a school wide announcement was made.

I've checked the uniform policy and there's no mention of it so I've emailed the school asking for clarification.

If this is indeed a policy that's being enforced I think it's ridiculous that female students are being made to dress in ways to suit male students. If a boy is distracted by girl's shoulders then the problem is with the boy! The messages this sends out just make me smh. It's 2020 and girls are having to think about how their clothes might make boys (and by extension, men) react. Argh!!!

Have a look at the staff dress code, if that states no shoulders then I think it's fair enough for VI form. I worked in one school where I had to remove my nose stud but VI formers didn't, it seemed a bit unfair.

One US school banned spaghetti straps for girls, the boys responded by turning up in spaghetti strap tops.

As for 'distracting', I do wonder how athletes like Jessica Ennis manage to work with male coaches, I mean it has to be so distracting for the poor coaches.

If the reason was 'distracting to boys' then that is sexist and unacceptable. But if the reason is actually that there is a dress code and pupils are pushing the boundaries then your DD needs to abide by the dress code. Fwiw most schools don't allow strappy tops, football colours or vest tops for either sex.
I'm guessing the policy says 'appropriate clothing' and you are arguing strappy tops are appropriate for the weather. But they also mean 'appropriate' for the school setting and will usually have issued a fuller description to parents at some point.

I don't have an issue with this either. I don't expect the boys are allowed to walk about without a shirt.

The reasoning isn’t suitable but I don’t think the expectation itself is unreasonable.

Also, if your daughter has an issue - why not let her deal with it herself as a young woman?

People are right in that shoulders are totally innocent and inoffensive. But by default the armpits will be bare. Perhaps a rule for all students saying 'armpits must be covered' would make more sense!

Wherever they’ll be working they will probably be expected to maintain a certain amount of decorum in their dress.

A very small proportion of them will go on to work in a high powered professional environment, and those that do will have 3+ years of university first. I don't see how or who it helps.. first day at new high powered job, are they going to think "luckily I know just what to wear - it'll be the same as what I wore to school aged 16". Would new starters who were allowed to wear - GASP - vest tops in sixth form be at a disadvantage and dress inappropriately or would everyone just ask the new employer and read their policy?

The “world of work” encompasses many professions where business suits would be completely inappropriate

This needs repeating due to very limited views on MN about workplaces, which vary a lot. Not everyone works in an office so preparing all students for that isn’t a good excuse. Many jobs it would be a necessity to wear light clothing.

There's quite a few posts I'd like to respond to individually but I'm at work now so might not get chance.

There are a lot asking what the policy actually says so I'll reiterate that there is no mention of this policy at all. I've read all 8 pages of the dress code and unfortunately 99% of it is geared towards the lower years who do actually wear uniforms. Those sections have the years they are applicable to in the heading, eg Y7-10. There is nothing specifically for 6th form.

There are a few general and vague terms used like "sensible" but they are only used to refer to things like bags and shoes.

There is no mention of business attire or anything similar and certainly no mention of shoulders specifically.

As mentioned in my OP I've asked the school for clarification. I haven't complained or accused them of anything, nor repeated the reason given to my daughter of it being distracting to boys. I asked if they had a policy which related to bare shoulders and if they could forward it to me or signpost it to me on their website so that I could read it.

I'm not against dress codes though I do agree with some pps that they sometimes don't have a sound rationale. What I am against is the reason given to my dd for this one in particular.

For those whose posts basically translate to "your dd is lying, nobody said that and sexism doesn't exist" - jog on.

@Jellycatspyjamas the previous poster had stated that 2 girls bought the same top in the same size, only one was an A cup, the other one a C (i think) to “test thr system”. Assuming the top fitted the cup girl, it would show everything with a c cup.
After kids, I’m a c cup. i used to be an a cup, everything else is back to original size. If I try to wear my old tops, I either get gaping buttons, my boobs fall out of my cleavage, or my tummy is on show.

People are right in that shoulders are totally innocent and inoffensive. But by default the armpits will be bare. Perhaps a rule for all students saying 'armpits must be covered' would make more sense!

Shoulders are innocent and inoffensive, those seductive armpits though....

No bare shoulders is pretty standard policy as is no shorts. Head of Sixth Form where I used to work used to tell kids no beach ware. Pastel shirts or blouses and trouser or skirt suits for Sixth Form. A smart jumper on top optional if really cold. This is pretty standard office wear. Your dd needs to get used to it. Teacher was wrong to say it distracted boys, just needed to say bare shoulders not appropriate for School/Sixth Form. I would save your rage for something that matters.

Half the thread don't seem to have read the point that this isn't in the school's uniform policy. So the teacher is literally making up misogynist nonsense. I would take up with the school.

It's also absolute nonsense that strap tops are not 'appropriate business dress'. I've worked in private and public sector offices and smart strap or vest tops (think silky type material) are fine in summer. If going to an important meeting you might put a blazer/jacket on (but you might do that even if wearing a normal blouse).

A ‘no bra straps on display’ rule is fair enough

Why? Bra straps are just material.

Look, young women at school are busy rushing from PE to science, studying for exams, handing in work before making their after school activities. They’re busy. Worrying about bra straps showing is regressive sexist bullshit and you all need to have a word with yourself. Once upon a time ankles were covered because they were distracting.

If it’s hot and a woman or girl wears a spaghetti strap that is not a big deal. It isn’t. Anyone offended by a shoulder or bra strap has a problem.

@Jellycatspyjamas the previous poster had stated that 2 girls bought the same top in the same size, only one was an A cup, the other one a C (i think) to “test thr system”.

My apologies I missed where it said they bought the same sized top, your comparison does make perfect sense in that instance.

It's a reasonable policy but (a) it should be in the policy and (b) it should not be about the reaction of boys. It's about appropriate workplace wear.

A smart jumper on top optional if really cold. This is pretty standard office wear.

Except it isn’t, and many kids won’t go on to work in an office.

Yanbu. Individual members of staff shouldn't be randomly pulling changes to policy out of their arses with no warning. It would be a stupid rule anyway, but this is even worse because it isn't even an actual rule.

If it's not in school dress code/uniform policy then she can wear what she likes and show off her lovely shoulders

Quite a few sixth forms have dress codes, which probably do prohibit skimpy tops (on either males or females), so I think you're right to check the uniform policy.

My business suit dresses all have bare shoulders, so if I take my jacket off I have bare shoulders (above a tailored dress) - there is nothing at all inappropriate about shoulders. YANBU

How I loathe school uniform. The entire concept, the execution, the consequences. Ugh.

If spaghetti strap tops are appropriate office wear what about Bardot style off the shoulder tops? They show the same amount of shoulder really.

Dress codes are antiquated sexist nonsense. There’s no reason any dress code needs to exist, bar those purely for health and safety.

Very few jobs have such an incredibly strict dress code and most jobs that do have a super strict dress code (eg very very formal and old fashioned law firm) will only be employing people with university degrees and lots of training and experience. Not school leavers.

I’ve worked in a million different jobs over the past few decades, worked in both the private and public sector, now own and run a national company. Apart from customer-facing jobs with an actual branded uniform I’ve never had a dress code, either. Plus dress codes tend to be control mechanisms for people lower down on the food chain to remind them of their place.

The more successful and powerful you are the more clothing freedom you have. We should encourage our daughters to aspire to be scientists, CEOs, writers, artists, policy makers. Not McDonalds peons in polyester uniforms.

Wonder how many female staff members had bare shoulders and probably big dangly earrings too.

@peachescariad

If it's not in school dress code/uniform policy then she can wear what she likes and show off her lovely shoulders

It's school, ffs! Hardly the venue for showcasing your lovely shoulders. What are some people on?