to be angry about 6th form's "shoulder's must be covered" policy

[randomname7208633]

I'm a dad of 4 (just putting that out there so there's no confusion) and this morning my dd (17) told me that yesterday, which was pretty hot here (not that that should matter,) she was told by a female member of staff that she had to either wear a coat all day or go home because her top had straps which made her shoulders visible.

Nothing else was uncovered and she was in no way indecent, she was just informed that shoulders had to be covered because otherwise (I know you can see this coming) it was "distracting to boys".

Apparently quite a few other girls were given the same warning that day (probably because it was the first really warm day since they'd been back to school and had all dressed according to the weather) and then a school wide announcement was made.

I've checked the uniform policy and there's no mention of it so I've emailed the school asking for clarification.

If this is indeed a policy that's being enforced I think it's ridiculous that female students are being made to dress in ways to suit male students. If a boy is distracted by girl's shoulders then the problem is with the boy! The messages this sends out just make me smh. It's 2020 and girls are having to think about how their clothes might make boys (and by extension, men) react. Argh!!!

@MillyMollyFarmer

as they are representing them.

No they’re not. They’re kids at school trying to learn. Staff represent the school. In any case, shoulders don’t pull down the image of a person or a school.

Yes they are representing them. If a child is caught fighting in their uniform whilst oit of school they can get into trouble at school.

I'm sorry but our school has told them they are representing them so you are wrong.

And surely sleeveless dresses are acceptable in most work places? NB: The majority of sleeveless dresses do not have spaghetti straps. Neither do vest tops?

All schools with uniform tell the students they are representing the school whilst wearing it outside

So we shouldn’t question the crap that comes out of schools? Why is everyone so willing to let schools dictate to them unreasonably? It’s ridiculous. This school doesn’t have a uniform!

@MillyMollyFarmer

All schools with uniform tell the students they are representing the school whilst wearing it outside

So we shouldn’t question the crap that comes out of schools? Why is everyone so willing to let schools dictate to them unreasonably? It’s ridiculous. This school doesn’t have a uniform!

Then this school is obviously exempt from that 😂

And so many schools fought long and hard to stop the girls wearing trousers, because seemingly girls learned best if they had cold legs. They can’t have it both ways.

I'm sorry but our school has told them they are representing them so you are wrong.

No I’m not wrong, schools aren’t the decider of all things. They don’t own our children. It’s compulsory to attend school, to then say they represent a place they are forced to go to is frankly, dumb. I can say whatever I want about it. It’s my opinion. It differs from your schools opinion. It isn’t wrong.

I'm sorry but our school has told them they are representing them so you are wrong.

It's not a case of right or wrong. Obviously the kids aren't 'officially' representing the school, but members of the public will see kids in uniform misbehaving and might make judgements about the school. The school don't want that, because it's not good for PR and for getting bums on seats, so they will lay it on thick about 'representing the school'.

Imo (as a teacher), schools' policies on uniform and dress code are largely about PR and self-advertisement too. Any teacher knows that wearing a tie or shorts makes zero difference to learning. But parents associate smart uniforms and strict dress codes with aspirational schools that have good results and well-behaved kids. Smart uniform attracts aspirational, supportive parents and makes the school look good to the wider community.

Yes it is. It's not revealing a sexual part of the body, but it is revealing more of the body. Are you denying that women's fashions often reveal more of their body than men's do? Do you not think there are any reasons for this?

Revealing in this context implies too much flesh is exposed or that an area of sexual interest is revealed. Vests are worn by men and women. We all have shoulders. There’s not sexual so there’s no issue here.

So I do actually think that schools have a role in reinforcing what might be considered “suitable” office wear

But not all children will go on to work in offices. Why are schools reinforcing the dress code of one type of work over another, for all students?

Then this school is obviously exempt from that

So the comment was irrelevant on this thread. Thanks for clearing that up

@MillyMollyFarmer

I'm sorry but our school has told them they are representing them so you are wrong.

No I’m not wrong, schools aren’t the decider of all things. They don’t own our children. It’s compulsory to attend school, to then say they represent a place they are forced to go to is frankly, dumb. I can say whatever I want about it. It’s my opinion. It differs from your schools opinion. It isn’t wrong.

Wow. You sound so angry

It is a commonly held view by schools that pupils do represent the school. A uniform is an identifier. I can assure you that when students at our local comprehensive behave very badly when in the local market town it often gets reported to the head teacher. Obviously he doesn't want the school to get a bad name.

You need to see the bigger picture. It isn't just about the "loss of civil liberties".

Vests are worn by men and women

Not in schools and workplaces. If men and boys don’t wear vest tops in those environments - and they don’t as a rule - why is it OK for girls and women?

If my net worth was around £76.6 billion, I wouldn't give a fuck if people thought I looked sloppy either

The entire point is that he knows he looks like shite and doesn’t really care. Unless he’s speaking before the US Congress 🙄

Think it’s very revealing of his character, so to speak.

And re vest tops, absolutely no way is a man wearing sleeveless tops to the office. So really don’t see how it’s sexist.

Been following this thread with interest as being judged on appearances is a hobby horse of mine (51 year old Goth even in "corporate" working environments). I have my own shop now which requires me to look the part .

Anyhoo, was having a quick smoke outside my shop, next door to a bakery that has queues of all sorts of professions every day, from local office types through builders, police, paramedics yadda yadda.

I was struck by one group - "director" or higher male manager guarding the enormous tinted window 4 x 4 with personalised number plates, wearing open necked white shirt and smart trousers. His entourage included three young women, two of whom were wearing body con dresses with shoulders exposed, all looked polished and elegant. Male manager seemed to be undistracted and only concerned with re-arranging a meeting on his phone.

So I agree with the OP and his stance, especially on the "distracting males" front - and it's about time we stopped banging on about conformity and encouraged people to dress to suit their personalities, body types and the occasion when appropriate - lets instil self-awareness and confidence rather than anything else maybe?

@randomname7208633 just wanted to say you sound like a great dad, setting a great example for their daughter. It’s great that she discussed this with you and you’ve stood up for her. Good luck to her for the future, I’m sure she’ll do great whatever she chooses to do, in whatever she chooses to wear whilst doing it.

Not in schools and workplaces. If men and boys don’t wear vest tops in those environments - and they don’t as a rule - why is it OK for girls and women?

The rule should apply to both sexes. The fact males are conditioned to have very limited clothing choices, is a different argument. In many jobs, they would wear vests. But for some reason, MN users are really laser focused on office jobs, as if that’s all that exists in the world.

Wow. You sound so angry

Do I? Because I told you my opinion was as valid as the schools? Why would I be angry about this? When my daughters school tried it, I complained and they retracted the policy. So not angry, I just know my opinion is valid and am confident to say so.

I’m no way a prude but I don’t think strappy tops are appropriate school attire at all. Now workwear either.

DD has just started 6th form and has to wear a uniform.

Each intake there always one or two who have no idea of what is suitable office attire, and have to be taken aside quietly to explain what is appropriate or not.

As we’ve seen on this thread though, there’s no universal standard of what’s appropriate in a workplace, so you may need to explain what’s appropriate for your particular workplace or what fits within your organisational culture.

I’m not sure how schools, or family settings could possibly prepare a young person to dress appropriately in your specific office environment. Surely that’s part of the induction process, along with how people get tea breaks, how lunch breaks are planned and other office etiquette - one size is never going to fit all.

@MillyMollyFarmer

Not in schools and workplaces. If men and boys don’t wear vest tops in those environments - and they don’t as a rule - why is it OK for girls and women?

The rule should apply to both sexes. The fact males are conditioned to have very limited clothing choices, is a different argument. In many jobs, they would wear vests. But for some reason, MN users are really laser focused on office jobs, as if that’s all that exists in the world.

That’s what I said! In what working environment other than a building site, is it acceptable for men to wear vests? In a working life of over 50 years I’ve never seen a man wearing a vest. As you concede, what’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. And vice versa.

In what working environment other than a building site, is it acceptable for men to wear vests?

The issue here is about policy. Any policy should apply to both. I’m not sure what your focus is, policy or social norm? It’s not policy that prevents men from wearing vests in situations where women are allowed to, its social norms. A different topic. Outside of the office I see men in vests all the time. So nobody cares about bare shoulders day to day, some believe it’s unprofessional, some do not.

Revealing in this context implies too much flesh is exposed or that an area of sexual interest is revealed. Vests are worn by men and women. We all have shoulders. There’s not sexual so there’s no issue here.

You gave two definitions, then claimed there was no issue here by ignoring the first definition. No, shoulders are not sexual. But yes, many schools and places of work may consider that wearing strappy tops or vests puts too much flesh on display. You're welcome to disagree. They are allowed to set a dress code. If people don't like it, they can find another school or another workplace.

@MillyMollyFarmer

In what working environment other than a building site, is it acceptable for men to wear vests?

The issue here is about policy. Any policy should apply to both. I’m not sure what your focus is, policy or social norm? It’s not policy that prevents men from wearing vests in situations where women are allowed to, its social norms. A different topic. Outside of the office I see men in vests all the time. So nobody cares about bare shoulders day to day, some believe it’s unprofessional, some do not.

Your arguments become more convoluted all the time. It’s obviously policy in a school or workplace, ergo it applies to both sexes/genders. So essentially you agree with me.

@MillyMollyFarmer

Wow. You sound so angry

Do I? Because I told you my opinion was as valid as the schools? Why would I be angry about this? When my daughters school tried it, I complained and they retracted the policy. So not angry, I just know my opinion is valid and am confident to say so.

If you had complained at DH's school they would have told you to find another school.

she was asked to go to the office today and was then asked why her dad had emailed in

That's fucking outrageous.