to be angry about 6th form's "shoulder's must be covered" policy

[randomname7208633]

I'm a dad of 4 (just putting that out there so there's no confusion) and this morning my dd (17) told me that yesterday, which was pretty hot here (not that that should matter,) she was told by a female member of staff that she had to either wear a coat all day or go home because her top had straps which made her shoulders visible.

Nothing else was uncovered and she was in no way indecent, she was just informed that shoulders had to be covered because otherwise (I know you can see this coming) it was "distracting to boys".

Apparently quite a few other girls were given the same warning that day (probably because it was the first really warm day since they'd been back to school and had all dressed according to the weather) and then a school wide announcement was made.

I've checked the uniform policy and there's no mention of it so I've emailed the school asking for clarification.

If this is indeed a policy that's being enforced I think it's ridiculous that female students are being made to dress in ways to suit male students. If a boy is distracted by girl's shoulders then the problem is with the boy! The messages this sends out just make me smh. It's 2020 and girls are having to think about how their clothes might make boys (and by extension, men) react. Argh!!!

"And Mark Zuckerberg runs Facebook wearing a hoodie. He still looks very unprofessional and sloppy."

If my net worth was around £76.6 billion, I wouldn't give a fuck if people thought I looked sloppy either. Most of those tech guys worth a fortune dress very casual (actually most techy type people seem to dress quite casually in general, sometimes with a bit of goth type flare).

People keep their views on scruffiness mostly to themselves in the UK, don't they?

Evidently not.

Well outside of anonymous internet chat!

Completely agree with you challenging this. you taking it seriously and backing her up on this is in my opinion very positive. I would do the same and I agree with simply asking an open question of school for more information before setting everything out - you’re scoping the situation. Would be unhappy with them pulling daughter into discuss - you’re the correspondent, they should contact you. I’m a professional (lawyer) and I’m happy to say strapless tops and dresses are absolutely fine in the “real” world. As are plunging necklines which was on their list too. Those staying “it’s not sexism it’s just unprofessional” - to me that is not a well thought out conclusion, but the starting point of consideration which necessarily then begs questions like but what does professional mean? why do I think it’s unprofessional for a women to wear a sleeveless dress or top? what is not professional about showing a bit of your arm or shoulder or the top of your breasts, especially when you’re dressing for the weather etc?

Follow up again OP this is everyday sexism. So many apologists for unnecessary school uniform rules here - girls used to have to wear skirts not trousers to school and that was bogus too and needed to be challenged - just because “they’re the rules” they can still be wrong.

Assuming that the teacher definitely said the ‘distracting’ comment then I agree that’s terrible and sexist. However, in a professional environment, she wouldn’t be able to wear a strappy top unless she had a cardigan on top so maybe now is a good time to start learning how to dress accordingly?

Shoulders are non sexual. Business dress and bare shoulders can work together. It’s called dressing for summer.

You are definitely NBU. When will schools stop trying to control what predominantly girls and women wear?

I find it odd that people think kids in 6th form should wear 'business attire' - why? They're studying - let them be comfortable so they can concentrate on their work. They won't be wearing business attire at Uni!

The whole formal dress code in offices is outdated too. I worked for a large utility company - no dress code. Everyone still managed to do their jobs!

@StarlightLady

Shoulders are non sexual. Business dress and bare shoulders can work together. It’s called dressing for summer.

It’s not necessary to expose flesh to “dress for summer”. The irony of this is that of vests and camisoles with spaghetti straps were part of a summer school uniform and therefore compulsory, there would be outcry.

The reason apparently given for vetoing those garments is just awful but there’s nothing wrong with the school’s ruling that they’re inappropriate.

Spaghetti straps are not allowed in most workplaces - i’d expect a sleeveless top to be ok?

Spaghetti straps are not allowed in most workplaces

There’s lots of evidence on this thread that isn’t the case. However the OP’s daughter wasn’t wearing spaghetti straps, she was wearing a normal vest top

It's the schools image though. In my DH's school they are very strict on uniform so expect the 6th form to look smart too as they are representing them.

DS's not DH's

Follow up again OP this is everyday sexism. So many apologists for unnecessary school uniform rules here - girls used to have to wear skirts not trousers to school and that was bogus too and needed to be challenged - just because “they’re the rules” they can still be wrong.

Are you suggesting that the girls aren't allowed to wear vest tops but the boys are? I find that very unlikely tbh.

Is it true that imposing a dress code which restricts the amount of bare skin on show will predominantly affect what girls wear, rather than boys? Absolutely. But maybe it's worth thinking about why fashion often makes girls wear revealing clothes but does not make boys do so. That's where the sexism lies imo, not in having a dress code that says 'students should not wear vests or strappy tops' (or very short skirts or very short shorts).

But maybe it's worth thinking about why fashion often makes girls wear revealing clothes but does not make boys do so.

A vest isn’t ‘revealing’ though. It’s just shoulders. Do you wear full sleeve tops? Do you wear vests outside your house?

It’s so old fashioned this conversation. Ridiculous to say shoulders are ‘too much’ or too revealing

as they are representing them.

No they’re not. They’re kids at school trying to learn. Staff represent the school. In any case, shoulders don’t pull down the image of a person or a school.

@MillyMollyFarmer

as they are representing them.

No they’re not. They’re kids at school trying to learn. Staff represent the school. In any case, shoulders don’t pull down the image of a person or a school.

All schools with uniform tell the students they are representing the school whilst wearing it outside. This is not new

The irony of this is that of vests and camisoles with spaghetti straps were part of a summer school uniform and therefore compulsory, there would be outcry.

Surely the outcry would been about the compulsory nature of the uniform, ie that people who didn’t want to wear such tops would be compelled to - so I’m not sure where the irony is?

It just requires some basic common sense doesn't it? If there is a policy, stick to it.
Its a place for learning , for study not a beach party.

My dd school 6th form dress code stated top were not allowed to show collar bones.

If you dont want your kids to wear uniform ircabude by a dress code, then send them somewhere with no dress code

If you want them to attend the school, you have to follow the rules.

@Jellycatspyjamas - Spot on, exactly. We are discussing uneccesary compulsion here.

So the girls are trying to distract the boys from their school work. Shame on them . By the way, when did spaghetti straps come into the discussion? The OP did not mention spaghetti straps.

I wear sleevless tops in a professional working environment, but l would not wear spaghetti straps to work.

As for fashion being more revealing for women, men can happily go top free in parks and on beaches. On many beaches it is stll frowned on for women to do so.

I work in an office, in a fairly professional sector (but not law etc). We have a fairly relaxed code but strappy tops are not allowed. However, every year we employ a number of school leavers for apprenticeship roles. These are all bright, post A level students who have chosen not to go to university even though they had the grades. Each intake there always one or two who have no idea of what is suitable office attire, and have to be taken aside quietly to explain what is appropriate or not. So I do actually think that schools have a role in reinforcing what might be considered “suitable” office wear. If a child has grown up in a family where there are no office based workers (not a particularly unusual situation) how are they supposed to know what is ok or not. Indeed, how could their parents/carers advise either

A vest isn’t ‘revealing’ though. It’s just shoulders.

Yes it is. It's not revealing a sexual part of the body, but it is revealing more of the body. Are you denying that women's fashions often reveal more of their body than men's do? Do you not think there are any reasons for this?

Do you wear vests outside your house?

On the beach, maybe. At work, no absolutely not. I would wear short sleeves in the summer, but not sleeveless tops. I work in a job where the dress code in different establishments ranges from suits to smart casual, but none tend to permit sleeveless tops.