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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to be angry about 6th form's "shoulder's must be covered" policy

631 replies

randomname7208633 · 15/09/2020 08:45

I'm a dad of 4 (just putting that out there so there's no confusion) and this morning my dd (17) told me that yesterday, which was pretty hot here (not that that should matter,) she was told by a female member of staff that she had to either wear a coat all day or go home because her top had straps which made her shoulders visible.

Nothing else was uncovered and she was in no way indecent, she was just informed that shoulders had to be covered because otherwise (I know you can see this coming) it was "distracting to boys".

Apparently quite a few other girls were given the same warning that day (probably because it was the first really warm day since they'd been back to school and had all dressed according to the weather) and then a school wide announcement was made.

I've checked the uniform policy and there's no mention of it so I've emailed the school asking for clarification.

If this is indeed a policy that's being enforced I think it's ridiculous that female students are being made to dress in ways to suit male students. If a boy is distracted by girl's shoulders then the problem is with the boy! The messages this sends out just make me smh. It's 2020 and girls are having to think about how their clothes might make boys (and by extension, men) react. Argh!!!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
UnacceptableOrNot · 15/09/2020 21:01

My daughter (year 11) was told last year that her school skirt was too short and that it would be distracting for the boys. I complained to the school and the teacher did admit to saying it, so I told her not to say anything like that to my child ever again. BTW, the skirt is the 'regulation' school skirt with the logo on, my daughter is just tall and it's obviously shorter on her than on her shorter friends.

VinylDetective · 15/09/2020 21:03

It feels a bit off of the school to try and get "inside info" on this instead of just replying to the questions I was asking

Perhaps the school thought it was “off” that you didn’t just tell them exactly what happened and why you were unhappy about it.

BuggerOffAndGoodDayToYou · 15/09/2020 21:09

[quote TheEC]@BuggerOffAndGoodDayToYou

Can you explain to me why shoulders are unprofessional please Smile[/quote]
The dress code is about looking professional. My dress code (as school staff) states several rules under the umbrella of looking professional, these include no bare shoulders, no denim, nothing see through, nothing low cut, nothing too short, nothing too tight. It is the prerogative of the employer (or school leadership team) to decide the dress code for staff AND students. If anyone doesn’t like it they don’t have to work or go to school there and can look elsewhere. DD had to wear a suit (skirt or trousers with matching jacket and a blouse or shirt) when she was in the sixth form. If she didn’t want to dress like that she could have opted for the local college where the rules are much more lenient - DS is now at the college but there are rules there too including no strappy tops and no sloganned clothing.

Emmelina · 15/09/2020 21:12

A lot of spaghetti strap vests can be quite revealing up top. No bare shoulders could be polite code for “please cover the girls!”

EinsteinaGogo · 15/09/2020 21:13

@randomname7208633

Two updates:

I've just got in and spoken to my dd (or rather my dd has come and spoken to me). First thing to mention is that she was asked to go to the office today and was then asked why her dad had emailed in Hmm. She explained why, including the justification given by the teacher, so the school knew that I was not merely interested in the policy but rather whether the policy was based on a sexist justification. It feels a bit off of the school to try and get "inside info" on this instead of just replying to the questions I was asking. Why not just email me back when I asked why shoulders needed to be covered? Instead they asked my dd why I was emailing and then didn't reply when they found out it was because I thought it was sexist.

The second update, which may be immaterial (pardon the pun) is that this was not a spaghetti top (I wouldn't have known what one was until today) but more of what I'd call a vest top. The "straps" are about a couple of inches thick so they weren't those stringy strap things you see and her bra straps were well and truly covered. I'm sure everyone will have their own opinion on whether those tops are appropriate in a school setting but as I've said before that wasn't really my main concern, but it seems to have become a hot topic in its own right within the thread.

How big is the school, OP?

I am astonished that with social distancing, COVID, new start of term and everything else on their plate, they have time to query an email that a 6th form parent emailed in, and the same day, called a 6th form student to the office.

Really quite astonishing.

ComeOnBabyPopMyBubble · 15/09/2020 21:15

No bare shoulders could be polite code for “please cover the girls!”

Hmm
wonkylegs · 15/09/2020 21:15

I find the 'strappy /vest tops aren't business dress' a bit mystifying
I've worked in various offices from a bank head office to professional practices from junior up to director level and have never found them to be banned and have worn them throughout obviously within appropriate outfits.
Unless a dress code specifically banned them it wouldn't occur to me as inappropriate.

Tavannach · 15/09/2020 21:18

It feels a bit off of the school to try and get "inside info" on this instead of just replying to the questions I was asking

Yes, it does.
Ask the governors what they think.

OfficeMonkee · 15/09/2020 21:21

Yabu, it is too casual to have shoulders exposed, for either sex.

Teenagers are better off learning to look smart and professional, the job market they will enter will be hard!

Why are you wasting school staff time with this? Don't you want them to have time to teach?

Clymene · 15/09/2020 21:21

@wonkylegs

I find the 'strappy /vest tops aren't business dress' a bit mystifying I've worked in various offices from a bank head office to professional practices from junior up to director level and have never found them to be banned and have worn them throughout obviously within appropriate outfits. Unless a dress code specifically banned them it wouldn't occur to me as inappropriate.
And I find it equally mystifying people saying they are P
Original poster
randomname7208633 · 15/09/2020 21:23

@wonkylegs

I find the 'strappy /vest tops aren't business dress' a bit mystifying I've worked in various offices from a bank head office to professional practices from junior up to director level and have never found them to be banned and have worn them throughout obviously within appropriate outfits. Unless a dress code specifically banned them it wouldn't occur to me as inappropriate.
That's what my eldest dd said who is a professional and has worked in a number of offices in a few different cities.
OP posts:
Original poster
randomname7208633 · 15/09/2020 21:35

@OfficeMonkee

Yabu, it is too casual to have shoulders exposed, for either sex.

Teenagers are better off learning to look smart and professional, the job market they will enter will be hard!

Why are you wasting school staff time with this? Don't you want them to have time to teach?

Your first point is a matter of opinion, not fact.

Your second point is debatable to say the least.

To answer the question in your third point, I don't think it's a waste of time to challenge sexism my dd has been exposed to. If any time has been wasted it isn't my fault, I'm not obligated to ignore this and just let them get on with perpetuating sexist bollocks so that I don't disturb their day! Fgs if we are teaching in schools that girls and the way they dress are responsible for how boys and men think and behave is it any wonder that we have problems in wider society with victim blaming when it comes to sexual assault? It's not rocket science to join the dots surely?

OP posts:
StripeyDeckchair · 15/09/2020 21:36

YANBU In arguing that a policy relating to girls being in place because the boys in the sixth form react to their inappropriately is totally unreasonable.
It's not the girls attire that should be policed but the boys behaviour.

Sixth forms tend to have a business wear dress code so spaghetti strap tops would be inappropriate but there are smart sleeveless dresses/tops that are totally fine for work wear. So it depends what she was wearing as to whether it was inappropriate as business dress.

WestendVBroadway · 15/09/2020 21:50

@OfficeMonkee Yabu, it is too casual to have shoulders exposed, for either sex.Teenagers are better off learning to look smart and professional, the job market they will enter will be hard! Why are you wasting school staff time with this? Don't you want them to have time to teach?
I quite agree with your last statement...........which is why I believe teachers should not waste lesson time telling students that their exposed shoulders are distracting boys, but should instead just get on and teach.

LM101 · 15/09/2020 21:57

My place of work has a policy that shoulders must be covered as spaghetti straps aren’t professional looking. If men are wearing shirts then women should wear an equally professional top.

My sixth form had a smart dress code and shoulders weren’t allowed on display. It’s not about distracting boys it’s about dressing smart

VinylDetective · 15/09/2020 22:02

I don't think it's a waste of time to challenge sexism my dd has been exposed to. If any time has been wasted it isn't my fault, I'm not obligated to ignore this and just let them get on with perpetuating sexist bollocks so that I don't disturb their day!

You didn’t challenge the sexism. A challenge would have been an email outlining what was said to your daughter and making it clear it was unacceptable. You didn’t do that. You tried to be be clever and wasted their time.

Allergictoironing · 15/09/2020 22:07

And yet more comments about spaghetti straps - despite the OP telling us that the top his DD wore was more a vest top type, with straps at least 2 inches wide - about the same width straps as were on the favorite office dress of a very senior M&S manager I worked for a few years ago (one level below Board), who would wear it at least once a week.

Please guys at least read the OP's posts if nothing else!

whattodo2019 · 15/09/2020 22:10

Out school doesn't allow girls to wear vest tops, camisoles etc. Tops need to have short sleeves or cap sleeves. Most professional businesses have the same dress code. I don't think it's wrong. We all need to learn what is weekend, party or beach style clothing vs school, college and work entire .

whattodo2019 · 15/09/2020 22:11

Attire. Bloody spell check...

ArtieFufkinPolymerRecords · 15/09/2020 22:24

Spaghetti straps are not suitable for school or the workplace

Our head manages to run an OFSTED rated outstanding school whilst wearing them!

Persipan · 15/09/2020 23:16

This thread is bringing back memories of when I was in sixth form at a very academic girls' grammar school. Our dress code was that we had to wear a skirt - no trousers. Which was clearly sexist nonsense, but anytime we challenged it they claimed this was necessary in order for us to look smart. I used to literally rock up in a leather jacket, a dress with both spaghetti straps and a corset back, with an actual chain mail bra over the top, and they never batted an eyelid in spite of this being possibly the least smart outfit imaginable - but there were ructions anytime someone surreptitiously tried to get away with culottes!

Cissyandflora · 16/09/2020 00:05

This makes me think of that funny fashion of all sorts of tops with the shoulders cut out. Is that over yet?

RudieSmithy · 16/09/2020 00:47

It could be the school fishing for inside info from your DD. I'd say it's more likely they've read your post on mumsnet 😂

MillyMollyFarmer · 16/09/2020 07:19

Most professional businesses have the same dress code.

No they don’t. Do you mean offices? That’s what you consider ‘professional’? People do all sorts of professional jobs and most of them don’t have this kind of dress code. Making children conform to a middle class idea of a proper job’s dress code is stupid and pointless. It achieves nothing. It really doesn’t.

IncandescentSilver · 16/09/2020 07:28

I'm baffled as to how a tunic style dress with thin but underwear covering straps at the top, as worn by my senior partner in a law firm very smartly, has now become so potentially distracting to men that the equivalent cannot be worn by schoolchildren.

These examples always involve women and girls being told what to wear, don't they?