to be angry about 6th form's "shoulder's must be covered" policy

[randomname7208633]

I'm a dad of 4 (just putting that out there so there's no confusion) and this morning my dd (17) told me that yesterday, which was pretty hot here (not that that should matter,) she was told by a female member of staff that she had to either wear a coat all day or go home because her top had straps which made her shoulders visible.

Nothing else was uncovered and she was in no way indecent, she was just informed that shoulders had to be covered because otherwise (I know you can see this coming) it was "distracting to boys".

Apparently quite a few other girls were given the same warning that day (probably because it was the first really warm day since they'd been back to school and had all dressed according to the weather) and then a school wide announcement was made.

I've checked the uniform policy and there's no mention of it so I've emailed the school asking for clarification.

If this is indeed a policy that's being enforced I think it's ridiculous that female students are being made to dress in ways to suit male students. If a boy is distracted by girl's shoulders then the problem is with the boy! The messages this sends out just make me smh. It's 2020 and girls are having to think about how their clothes might make boys (and by extension, men) react. Argh!!!

@MillyMollyFarmer

God, the bloody draaaaaammaaaa!

Exactly. That’s why the teacher was a moron for bothering about it. I’m assuming the OP wanted to see what the schools official reasoning is, which they could easily have given when they sent the first response instead of him having to reply and ask for it. So the issue is the school should of made the policy and the reasoning clear on their website. Then there’s no questions or confusion or random teachers sexualising children.

But they wouldn't have given the rationale with his first email, because his question was :

"What is the 6th form female dress code, I can't find it"....

Pastel shirts or blouses and trouser or skirt suits for Sixth Form. A smart jumper on top optional if really cold. This is pretty standard office wear

I disagree. Apart from the financial sector, where they have some very odd dress codes (including one that insisted female staff wore high heels, until someone successfully brought a discrimination action against them on this point), most offices are much more relaxed about dress codes than they used to be. Smart casual appears to be becoming the norm in many sectors.

DP has never had had a job where he's had to wear a suit or a tie since he stopped being a motorcycle courier 30 years ago. In the public sector, the dress code became much more relaxed in the noughties. I have a couple of friends who are solicitors, they only wear suits if they're in court.

I work in the 3rd sector and we have no dress code whatsoever. Flip flops, jeans, strappy tops, shorts (as long as they're not cycling shorts or sports shorts), we can wear what the hell we like. That's because it's what we do that counts and not what we wear. Which is how it should be imo.

I have no idea where some of you people work but sleeveless tops, shift dresses etc are completely acceptable in all the workplaces I have been involved in. That is governmental departments and finance.

Nobody is saying sleeveless tops or dresses are not acceptable. It’s strappy tops that are at issue here.

I work in a school and i had bare shoulders AND legs yesterday and today.

The horror of it all!!

If it's in the school policy and applies to both girls and boys fair enough as a clothing rule. "Because it distracts the boys" is not an acceptable reason, especially if expressed to pupils. If it's a made up rule by a teacher going by what THEY deem acceptable then that's even worse.

Right then. If shoulders are 'distracting to boys' then I demand that boys wear full length sleeves at school because, ya know GUNS. I go weak at the knees for a good bicep/forearm (appropriately aged obviously) so god only knows how 17/18 year old girls control themselves. Somehow they manage 🙄

What next - knees, ankles, the nape of a neck?

most offices are much more relaxed about dress codes than they used to be

Yes they are. My husband worked across London in offices, BBC, Sky, all sorts... all the guys wore t shirts, shorts, jeans, sandals... whatever. The few women they worked with also had no policy.

There was a thread the other day with a parent frothing about her dd having been told to tie her hair back, apparently because it was distracting to boys.

The advice there, and I agree, was to ask the dd to write down exactly what the teacher said. If it’s a tall tale then you’ll soon find out...

I think there have to be some rules on dress, as a school/college setting is not a beach or love island. No midriffs or spaghetti/Bardot tops nor short shorts. This applies to either sex. Armpits can be a bit grim, whether they are hairy or caked in choking levels of deodorant.

This is exactly why I am pleased that my children attend a school with a uniform for 6th form and not a dress code. There's no room for argument or personal interpretation of what constitutes office wear or business dress. Individual teachers don't get to make value judgements about the suitability of particular outfits and the boys and girls uniform is identical so no opportunity for double standards.
I think this half way house of a business dress code for 6th form is nonsense - either have a uniform or let them wear clothes that they really want to wear. I've got many friends who have bought expensive suits and other formal clothes for 6th form that their children are no keener to wear than uniform and cost a lot more. The majority will be going onto University afterwards so they are not going to wear these clothes again and they don't need to "practice" wearing business wear for the next phase of their lives as most of them are going to spend the next 3 years in jeans and t shirts. What is the point of these dress codes supposed to be? If schools want to give older pupils the freedom to choose what they wear then they should actually do it and if they don't, then just have a practical and relatively inexpensive uniform that can't give rise to this kind of problem.

I agree mrsavocet, the business thing seems the worst of all worlds.

A young woman exposing her shoulders and breasts in skimpy clothing is in no way comparable to a young man with biceps under a blazer.

randomer, quite, which is why that poster specified that boys should 'wear full length sleeves'.

But also, who would want to sit next to some hairy bloke wearing just a vest top and shorts in the office? Dress codes are for a reason.

When I was working in an office we had a smart casual dress code that specified no strapless or strappy tops, no flip flops, no ripped jeans, no T-shirts and no trainers.

As the norm for many companies is probably going to be mainly WFH I think dress code will become even less important. I have been sat at my computer at home in strappy top and shorts today. I only have Teams calls with my workmates so what I wear doesn’t matter.

In terms of “distracting boys” I think some posters are being disingenuous. From some of the things DD told me I can assure you that visible bra straps certainly got noticed and talked about. No matter how much you tell adolescent boys to reign it in they will still notice even if they don’t say anything. Although I can’t see why strappy tops would be distracting unless they are low cut.

It would be interesting to know exactly what the dress code states, because if it just says "sensible clothes" then that is open to interpretation.

A young woman exposing her shoulders and breasts in skimpy clothing

Oh stop it. Nobody’s breasts are exposed from a spaghetti strap. What a bunch of nonsense this all is. The way people sexualise innocent parts of children’s bodies is disturbing. You’re all ridiculous.

From some of the things DD told me I can assure you that visible bra straps certainly got noticed and talked about. No matter how much you tell adolescent boys to reign it in they will still notice even if they don’t say anything

Well then they should be talked to about their stupidness. Freaking out about spaghetti straps or bra straps is dumb. Their parents need to do a better job of helping their sons see girls and women as equals and bra straps as nothing but a piece of fabric.

Yes, in a perfect world they would listen and behave accordingly, but the world isn't perfect. I had to report one of the boys in DD's year because of his mysogynistic, body shaming comments about DD when the teacher had left the room. He humiliated DD in front of the whole class.

Fortunately, the school took my concerns seriously. However, telling boys like that not to do it is like water off a ducks back. He still behaves like that.

I know it isn't right, but I still think that some posters underestimate how a teenage boy's mind works.

We were expected to wear jumpers if we had coloured bras on under a white shirt. Most girls wore grey shirts so no rule I was a bit of a maverick and wore a white shirt and a white bra. The read we had to do this was so we wouldn't distract the boys, that was nearly 40 years ago. Our senior mistress had a very low opinion of teenage boys.

I know it isn't right, but I still think that some posters underestimate how a teenage boy's mind works.

How some teenage boys minds work. Yes it’s true it happens, but it shouldn’t be what dictates dress code.

@ameliajoan

The risk here is that there is either a policy that sexualises girls shoulders or a teacher who has come up with it by himself

OpenlyGayExOlympicFencer Or the more likely explanation of OP’s daughter either lying or coming out with her own thoughts on the matter and attributing them to the reason she was asked to dress appropriately.

Oh, and the teacher was female. Not male.

I'm reasonable enough to accept it as a possible explanation but why "more likely"?

I know my DD well enough to believe that would be out of character for her and unlikely, but what basis have you for your belief that it's more likely she's lying than that a sexist remark was made or that a policy was based on sexism?

@Ginfordinner it's more that once you accept there's nothing you can do about so you expect girls to modify their behaviour in order to "avoid" these reactions where do you draw the line?

Cover legs fully up too?
Hair?
Face?
Don't smile.
Don't make jokes.
Don't be too friendly.

Boys can and should control themselves. If they don't then there must be consequences. If It's their behaviour that is the problem , then that's what should be policed and limited.

Good points

The way people sexualise innocent parts of children’s bodies is disturbing

ghastly idea but the person under discussion is aged 17.

If I was the college/school I would be rolling my eyes at you, when schools have enough going on at the moment.................................

DD's sixth form dress code is: no leggings, no bare shoulders, no crop tops, no tiny skirts.

They're a girls' sixth form so nothing to do with boys, just a sensible dress code.

Did the teacher really mention distracting boys???

I'm reasonable enough to accept it as a possible explanation but why "more likely"?

It’s more likely because with how PC the world is now few teachers would dare come out with something like that as it could be career ending.

Also teenage girls quite often have these sorts of ideas and think everyone else does to, so they attribute them to all whether deliberately or otherwise.