to be angry about 6th form's "shoulder's must be covered" policy

[randomname7208633]

I'm a dad of 4 (just putting that out there so there's no confusion) and this morning my dd (17) told me that yesterday, which was pretty hot here (not that that should matter,) she was told by a female member of staff that she had to either wear a coat all day or go home because her top had straps which made her shoulders visible.

Nothing else was uncovered and she was in no way indecent, she was just informed that shoulders had to be covered because otherwise (I know you can see this coming) it was "distracting to boys".

Apparently quite a few other girls were given the same warning that day (probably because it was the first really warm day since they'd been back to school and had all dressed according to the weather) and then a school wide announcement was made.

I've checked the uniform policy and there's no mention of it so I've emailed the school asking for clarification.

If this is indeed a policy that's being enforced I think it's ridiculous that female students are being made to dress in ways to suit male students. If a boy is distracted by girl's shoulders then the problem is with the boy! The messages this sends out just make me smh. It's 2020 and girls are having to think about how their clothes might make boys (and by extension, men) react. Argh!!!

TBF a lot of women in the ME have their dress dictated by cultural demands they're expected to buy into as well! Cover up your body because of how men think the female form should be displayed, don't cover up your body because of how men think the female form should be displayed.

You don’t see shirtless men wandering around inME countries either.

@SerenDippitty

TBF a lot of women in the ME have their dress dictated by cultural demands they're expected to buy into as well! Cover up your body because of how men think the female form should be displayed, don't cover up your body because of how men think the female form should be displayed.

You don’t see shirtless men wandering around inME countries either.

True, there are some societal expectations for the men in the region too, legal in a couple of cases. They're nothing like as restrictive as for the women, but neither are they absent.

EinsteinaGogo

I take your point, I honestly do. I might be going about this the wrong way.

The thing is, if the school have pulled a dress code from up their arse (and I'm not necessarily saying they have) due to an official notion within the school that girls are distracting boys (and therefore should dress in a way that takes responsibility for that) then I want the school to say that.

I'm wary of simply saying "teacher x told my dd that her bare shoulders distract boys" because it would give the school the opportunity to realise they have been sexist without admitting to it or doing anything about it.

But as I say, point taken.

I went to a convent school in my day and they were ridiculously strict about what to wear. I am grown up now and when I think back it is absolutely ridiculous. I remember we had a dress in your own clothes day and this girl came in with extremely short shorts that half her ass was showing and I felt embarrassed for her to walk around like that. However, by your description it does not sound bad and when it is hot, schools should be understanding. I agree with you, if boys get distracted then that is their issue! Ridiculous world these days

@MillyMollyFarmer

God, the bloody draaaaaammaaaa!

Exactly. That’s why the teacher was a moron for bothering about it. I’m assuming the OP wanted to see what the schools official reasoning is, which they could easily have given when they sent the first response instead of him having to reply and ask for it. So the issue is the school should of made the policy and the reasoning clear on their website. Then there’s no questions or confusion or random teachers sexualising children.

Thanks, that's put it better than I could

@ameliajoan

YABU. The policy is specifically no bare shoulders.

It’s nothing to do with being distracting to boys; that will be something your daughter has come out with and not from a teacher.

However this "policy" hasn't been made available until AFTER the OP's query, as he couldn't find it on the web site. So how can people know what this policy is except by breaking it?

But the OP's main point wasn't so much the policy itself, but the reasoning given behind it's existence - distracting the boys.

I've asked them if they could provide me with the rationale behind no bare shoulders.

They don't need to provide a 'rationale'. You wouldn't presumably expect the boys to be going to school in vests, so why is it ok for the girls? There's no 'rationale' behind having a tie as part of school uniform, or black shoes. The school can decide what it thinks is appropriate dress. Either stick to it or change schools. The 'distracting to boys' thing is outrageous though.

Allergictoironing yes, I wonder exactly when this policy was written, give that OP wrote they'd checked the policy and there was nothing then about bare shoulders.

You’re welcome. I’ve dealt with exactly the same issue at our school and they saw sense thankfully. Some schools just keep on doing what they’ve always done until someone points out the ridiculousness or even the sexist nonsense of it all.

Leaving aside the fact that it appears not to be a policy the school have actually bothered to write down, I never understand the 'it's not about distracting the boys, it's a policy so they have to' responses. Why is it a policy? What purpose does the policy serve? Could that purpose (if, indeed, it exists) be better served by a different policy? I don't get why we expect children to mindlessly and unquestioningly accept irrational rules without seeking to understand or improve them. (Well, I do, but that's another thread entirely.)

And I've absolutely continued to be in possession of shoulders while in business dress, and indeed to have them in display with no worrying consequences whatsoever, so I've no time for that argument, either.

The quick bullet-pointed list does sound a little suss. But I'd want to quote back to the school what your DD says the teacher told her and see what their response is.

Obviously saying it's 'distracting to boys' is not acceptable IF that's what the teacher said. Even if no bare shoulders does turn out to be part of the dress code.

by your description it does not sound bad and when it is hot, schools should be understanding

Actually the more flesh you show the hotter you get. A short sleeved top is fine in hot weather. No need to have a strappy top. I don't like running vests because I just don't like shoulders on show, they're not pretty and definitely not sexually attractive, the whole idea of that is bizarre.

I guess one advantage of being in the Middle East is not having to see fat-bellied men showing off their fat bellies rather than keeping their shirts on.

I guess one advantage of being in the Middle East is not having to see fat-bellied men showing off their fat bellies rather than keeping their shirts on.

I dunno, there are a couple of places in Israel!

Gah this is about actual day to day reality (it's hard to believe some posters here have actually set foot in a school of late, never mind a sixth form). Of course the school have to enforce rules because some adolescents push boundaries (and that's entirely consistent with what they are supposed to be doing developmentally!). If you have a dress policy - it's a case of having to draw a line at a point that is slightly more conservative than one would ideally wish to do - because you know that line will be stretched a bit. It's common sense! Schools have thousands of pupils to think about, including pupils in lower forms right down to the age of eleven, they haven't time to police the intricacies of every individual pupil's attire, so a basic blanket policy that is equal for both sexes "no shoulders or midriffs showing" is eminently sensible imho for both staff and pupils.

And sorry but a parent sending more than one e-mail about this is taking up time that could be used for you know, education.

The risk here is that there is either a policy that sexualises girls shoulders or a teacher who has come up with it by himself. Whichever it is, a reasonable parent would be concerned and it needs addressing. That, more than the content of the policy itself, is the issue, though it would be good practice for it also to be on the website for all to see.

The risk here is that there is either a policy that sexualises girls shoulders or a teacher who has come up with it by himself. Whichever it is, a reasonable parent would be concerned and it needs addressing.

Agree.

I'm sorry but there is no way the policy is there because boys can't control themselves etc and there is no way in hell the policy makes any mention of it, even if it is the case that people that drew it up have that misandrist belief.

This sounds like a classic case of a pupil asking why the rule matters what difference it makes a member of staff came up with his/ her own explanation would instead of saying it's not smart dress, or I don't make the rules take it up with the head/ head of sixth form .

It is also very unlikely they will change it and they will simply say uniform rules are what they are and have been agreed with the governers but ultimately after after whatever meetings and discussions you have in the end it boils down to" you are free to send your daughter somewhere else with a more relaxed policy."

Ultimately the member of staff and involved will be given a dressing down or advice on how to tackle such queries. You might even get a meeting with a member of the sixth form team. I doubt very much your daughter will be now allowed to show bare shoulders going forward. What are you hoping to achieve?

But vest tops are one of the few things that are not sexualised (and bare midriff). Neither boys nor girls should wear vests, neither should bare their midriff.
I don’t find my colleagues beer belly the slightest bit attractive/sexy, I still don’t want to see it. I also don’t want to see my female colleagues underwear (including bra straps or bra visible through big armholes), and I don’t need to know where he or she does (not) shave, or have their underarm sweat and deodorant residues wiped on the back of chairs. Yuck.
Sleeves please. Its not that hard.

I'm sorry but there is no way the policy is there because boys can't control themselves etc and there is no way in hell the policy makes any mention of it, even if it is the case that people that drew it up have that misandrist belief.

In which case the member of staff could do with a chat. And really, him not saying anything like that to a female pupil in future would be an outcome worth securing.

I have no idea where some of you people work but sleeveless tops, shift dresses etc are completely acceptable in all the workplaces I have been involved in. That is governmental departments and finance. For goodness sakes, this is like the Republicans condemning Michelle Obama for wearing a sleeveless dress....now of course Melania wears sleeveless all the time - if she's wearing actual clothes and not being photographed naked but that for is another thread....Samantha Cameron frequently wore sleeveless for day and evening when she was married to the PM as does Queen Letizia, Meghan and Kate. If it appropriate for royalty, the city and top level politics, I think it is universally acceptable. I think some of you live in the 1800....

Our 6th form states office wear. The girls push the rules all the time. The boys just wear suits. The policy now says no shoulders on show etc etc. It’s not suitable for an office so tell your daughter to follow the rules. It’s on these occasions I actually feel sorry for the boys trussed up like turkeys in their suits and ties.

I can’t believe in 2020 a teacher said it’s distracting for the boys. I don’t believe that at all.

The risk here is that there is either a policy that sexualises girls shoulders or a teacher who has come up with it by himself

OpenlyGayExOlympicFencer Or the more likely explanation of OP’s daughter either lying or coming out with her own thoughts on the matter and attributing them to the reason she was asked to dress appropriately.

Oh, and the teacher was female. Not male.

Which is what I went on to say /predict is going to happen.

But the thread title is anger about "no shoulders policy ". The policy won't change in the near future at least.

@ameliajoan

The risk here is that there is either a policy that sexualises girls shoulders or a teacher who has come up with it by himself

OpenlyGayExOlympicFencer Or the more likely explanation of OP’s daughter either lying or coming out with her own thoughts on the matter and attributing them to the reason she was asked to dress appropriately.

Oh, and the teacher was female. Not male.

The OPs daughter lying is a possibility, and she could also have misunderstood in some way, which is why I used the phrase 'the risk here is' rather than 'the situation here is'. You have no idea whether it's more likely or not that she's lying though.

Thank you for the correction as to the teacher's sex, though it doesn't change anything material about the situation.

I can’t believe in 2020 a teacher said it’s distracting for the boys. I don’t believe that at all.

Well it fucking happens. A head of year at our daughters school did it, almost exact wording, at an assembly. Complaints followed and the girls were told to disregard what was previously said, spaghetti straps and bare shoulders were fine.