to be angry about 6th form's "shoulder's must be covered" policy

[randomname7208633]

I'm a dad of 4 (just putting that out there so there's no confusion) and this morning my dd (17) told me that yesterday, which was pretty hot here (not that that should matter,) she was told by a female member of staff that she had to either wear a coat all day or go home because her top had straps which made her shoulders visible.

Nothing else was uncovered and she was in no way indecent, she was just informed that shoulders had to be covered because otherwise (I know you can see this coming) it was "distracting to boys".

Apparently quite a few other girls were given the same warning that day (probably because it was the first really warm day since they'd been back to school and had all dressed according to the weather) and then a school wide announcement was made.

I've checked the uniform policy and there's no mention of it so I've emailed the school asking for clarification.

If this is indeed a policy that's being enforced I think it's ridiculous that female students are being made to dress in ways to suit male students. If a boy is distracted by girl's shoulders then the problem is with the boy! The messages this sends out just make me smh. It's 2020 and girls are having to think about how their clothes might make boys (and by extension, men) react. Argh!!!

Update:

I've received an email response from the school with the 6th form dress code attached.

My first thought was that compared to the main school policy which is easily accessible, 8 pages long and very detailed, this is just 7 bullet points in a PDF that I couldn't find online. Now there may be nothing in that at all but it does make me wonder when and how this was formulated.

Shoulders are mentioned in bullet point 1: "No plunging necklines, no bare shoulders and no bare midriff."

I've asked the school if this policy is on the website as I was unable to find it and I've asked them if they could provide me with the rationale behind no bare shoulders. I wasn't entirely sure how that would come across but I wanted to see if they would give a reason without me first saying that my dd had been given the "distracting the boys" line.

Just wear appropriate clothing - business attire. Not vests for boys or girls. Boys have to wear suits at our 6th form and girls have equivalent clothing. Stop making drama out of nothing.

I was thinking about Linfords lunch box earlier

fair enough I suppose

@randomname7208633

Update:

I've received an email response from the school with the 6th form dress code attached.

My first thought was that compared to the main school policy which is easily accessible, 8 pages long and very detailed, this is just 7 bullet points in a PDF that I couldn't find online. Now there may be nothing in that at all but it does make me wonder when and how this was formulated.

Shoulders are mentioned in bullet point 1: "No plunging necklines, no bare shoulders and no bare midriff."

I've asked the school if this policy is on the website as I was unable to find it and I've asked them if they could provide me with the rationale behind no bare shoulders. I wasn't entirely sure how that would come across but I wanted to see if they would give a reason without me first saying that my dd had been given the "distracting the boys" line.

Gosh, you're giving the school staff a lot of unnecessary work, aren't you op? Do you think they have nothing better to do?

Why not just be straight forward: My DD was told XXXXX by XXXX teacher - pls explain why this was said.

Whatever the policy is, it ought to be accessible on the website and I'd want to know more about this 'distracting the boys' nonsense.

Exactly. OP is just wanting validation for his daughter not wanting to conform.

Not at all. My concern is that she was told bare shoulders distract boys. It's nothing to do with conforming.

O think you're totally right in your thought process.

HOWEVER.

I do think it's weird the way women are encouraged to show more skin than men. You see it every summer - women in strappy tops and micro shorts, men in jeans or board shorts and tshirts. Its not really about being so hot that a strappy top makes a world of difference compared to a tshirt (cf how women dress in the middle east). Its because women are consistently required to bare more skin and buy into that demand.

So I think it's good if the school has a blanket ban of no shoulders for girls and boys. Did she ACTUALLY say it was distracting for boys? Because I find that difficult to believe

Why not just be straight forward: My DD was told XXXXX by XXXX teacher - pls explain why this was said.

Fair enough. You're probably right about that.

@randomname7208633

Exactly. OP is just wanting validation for his daughter not wanting to conform.

Not at all. My concern is that she was told bare shoulders distract boys. It's nothing to do with conforming.

Then why don’t you just take it up with the head teacher instead of fucking the staff about? That way the head teacher has a word with the offending staff member and it’s all over. I’m amazed anyone’s got time to go through this nonsense. You must have a very small workload.

I pressed YNBU for the distracting comment.

You are being unreasonable if you dont think that office workers or students should follow the dress code they will have agreed to in office/school policy.

Gosh, you're giving the school staff a lot of unnecessary work, aren't you op? Do you think they have nothing better to do?

How is answering a couple of emails ‘unnecessary work’? It’s barely any time at all if they policy exists, it’s easy to answer. It’s also their job to liaise with parents about concerns. I’m so tired of anything parents care about being labelled as this huge gigantic workload for teachers. Part of their job is to do exactly this, answer parents questions.

No plunging necklines, no bare shoulders and no bare midriff."

See those 3 things just don’t go together. Bare shoulders aren’t comparable to the other two things. I’m glad you’re doing this for your daughter. I did for mine, along with other parents, and the policy wasn’t enforced. Which was just as well because some teachers wore spaghetti straps and had bare shoulders, at school.

@MillyMollyFarmer

No plunging necklines, no bare shoulders and no bare midriff."

See those 3 things just don’t go together. Bare shoulders aren’t comparable to the other two things. I’m glad you’re doing this for your daughter. I did for mine, along with other parents, and the policy wasn’t enforced. Which was just as well because some teachers wore spaghetti straps and had bare shoulders, at school.

So do you think the two tops I posted earlier are both appropriate school/work wear? There really isn’t much difference in the amount of skin they show. If you think the strappy one is OK then logically you should think the off the shoulder one is too.

@MillyMollyFarmer

Gosh, you're giving the school staff a lot of unnecessary work, aren't you op? Do you think they have nothing better to do?

How is answering a couple of emails ‘unnecessary work’? It’s barely any time at all if they policy exists, it’s easy to answer. It’s also their job to liaise with parents about concerns. I’m so tired of anything parents care about being labelled as this huge gigantic workload for teachers. Part of their job is to do exactly this, answer parents questions.

The OP is deliberately dragging the situation out.

He could / should have said something like:

Dear school,

"DD has been told by X teacher that her clothing was innappropriate because it was 'distracting to boys'. I find this shocking. Can you please investigate and tell me why this statement was made".

That is an appropriate query.

Not:

1: please furnish me with 6th form dress code.

On receipt:

2: please tell me rationale behind bare shoulders

Presumably on receipt,

3: ahaaaaa.... then pls tell me why X teacher said to DD....

God, the bloody draaaaaammaaaa!

If you think the strappy one is OK then logically you should think the off the shoulder one is too.

I do. I don’t get turned on or aroused by shoulders. I don’t see the issue.

How much shoulder is too much? Would a dress like this be ok?

www.hobbs.com/product/mina-dress/0219-5829-9045L00-NAVY.html?fo_c=1380&fo_k=8f16289fbf57e6b64a051ac01bfc252e&fo_s=gplauk&fo_oid=3948&gclid=CjwKCAjwzIH7BRAbEiwAoDxxTrCjR8bFirvTffZ_crbBb1sw1NJ318puYYR6U8KboSTl3AN95c67pRoCZd4QAvD_BwE

Because I have broad shoulders, on me that dress would show quite a lot of shoulder, but it's smart and businesslike and should be perfectly acceptable imo.

If the policy doesn't have anything in it about shoulders or width of straps on sleeveless dresses or tops, the teacher needs to stfu. And the comment about "distracting for boys" is just sexist bollocks. Girls shouldn't have a dress code determined by the distractability of teenage boys. They'd end up wearing bloody burkas if that was the yardstick.

@MillyMollyFarmer

If you think the strappy one is OK then logically you should think the off the shoulder one is too.

I do. I don’t get turned on or aroused by shoulders. I don’t see the issue.

You think the off the shoulder top is appropriate for office/school? I would think you are in a minority.

God, the bloody draaaaaammaaaa!

Exactly. That’s why the teacher was a moron for bothering about it. I’m assuming the OP wanted to see what the schools official reasoning is, which they could easily have given when they sent the first response instead of him having to reply and ask for it. So the issue is the school should of made the policy and the reasoning clear on their website. Then there’s no questions or confusion or random teachers sexualising children.

Its not really about being so hot that a strappy top makes a world of difference compared to a tshirt (cf how women dress in the middle east). Its because women are consistently required to bare more skin and buy into that demand.

TBF a lot of women in the ME have their dress dictated by cultural demands they're expected to buy into as well! Cover up your body because of how men think the female form should be displayed, don't cover up your body because of how men think the female form should be displayed.

Yanbu about the comment, but I’d say check the dress code policy carefully. We couldn’t wear vests at work for professional reasons,

YABU. The policy is specifically no bare shoulders.

It’s nothing to do with being distracting to boys; that will be something your daughter has come out with and not from a teacher.

Was she wearing a strapless bra or could the issue be no bra?

You think the off the shoulder top is appropriate for office/school?

It’s not for the office, it’s for school. Two different environments. I think it’s fine for school. I know I’m actually not in a minority because when a teacher tried this at our school, I was one of several parents who complained and the policy was withdrawn. Next time I went in to school for a meeting, there was a pupil drilling together an art project in a spaghetti strap top, right in the foyer of a fancy pants school. Everybody around, including men, went about their day without batting an eyelid. Really normal non-interesting thing really, shoulders.

But it is cooler and more comfortable in hot dry countries to wear loose cotton clothing that covers your shoulders. The more skin you expose to the sun the hotter and more uncomfortable you will be.

@LakieLady

How much shoulder is too much? Would a dress like this be ok?

www.hobbs.com/product/mina-dress/0219-5829-9045L00-NAVY.html?fo_c=1380&fo_k=8f16289fbf57e6b64a051ac01bfc252e&fo_s=gplauk&fo_oid=3948&gclid=CjwKCAjwzIH7BRAbEiwAoDxxTrCjR8bFirvTffZ_crbBb1sw1NJ318puYYR6U8KboSTl3AN95c67pRoCZd4QAvD_BwE

Because I have broad shoulders, on me that dress would show quite a lot of shoulder, but it's smart and businesslike and should be perfectly acceptable imo.

If the policy doesn't have anything in it about shoulders or width of straps on sleeveless dresses or tops, the teacher needs to stfu. And the comment about "distracting for boys" is just sexist bollocks. Girls shouldn't have a dress code determined by the distractability of teenage boys. They'd end up wearing bloody burkas if that was the yardstick.

That dress is perfectly fine office wear - I have many similar.