AIBU to think my sister is being an idiot?

[Rainbowsandpotsofgold]

Ok so my darling sister (29) is pregnant with her 1st baby after trying for 2 years. Shes decided she wants an elective c section ...no medical reason...she does suffer with fibromyalgia but so do me and my mum (2 natural births each).

Shes made this decision based on
A) She's afraid of a long labour ( I was 15 having my eldest while living at home, was in slow labour for 5 days and 17hours active labour but my daughter was born stargazing which wasnt picked up until she was coming out)
B) She doesn't want to tear ( no idea where this fear has come from 🤷‍♀️)

My argument is that...

1. Recovery from surgery can take longer for fibro sufferers
2. Anaesthetic/ epidurals don't work as well on us either
3. She lives 30 miles away from us, near her husband's family and knowing my sister, she will expect us ( our mum at least) to be there every day ( mum has fibro, ms and 2 Foster kids of school age plus my elderly grandparents who we both care for)
4. With all the uncertainty regarding covid, she will possibly be in hospital alone for a few days after the birth
5. After trying for so long I dont understand why she wouldn't at least want to try a natural birth?

She's a nightmare to try and talk to and once she's made a decision (even bad ones) she wont change her mind (typically baby of the family syndrome - brat)

Just to add...I will be showing her the replies as she is refusing to listen to me, my mum or my gran (who has had a natural birth and a c section...50 years ago but I dont think the basics have changed)

AIBU to think shes being an utter idiot in thinking a c section is the 'easiest' (her words) option?

Her birth, her choice 🙄

I had an elective c section (for my mental health) and it was an amazing experience in terms of the birth and recovery. Whereas my friend who gave birth naturally had an awful time despite begging for intervention. Now six months later she suffers extreme back pain, incontinence and absolutely shredded nether regions that time cannot heal. It’s an extreme example I know.

But a baby born is a gift and a miracle. How they entered the world is irrelevant. How about love for the woman that grew a few cells and in 9 months there is a baby in her tummy. Now that’s amazing! I’m a mum and it still blows my mind ❤️

I haven't read all the posts - how would you feel if your sister chose to take your advice but due to circumstances she ended up with an emergency section? Would you support her then?

[quote DalzielandPaxo]@Rainbowsandpotsofgold you are a terrible sister. And not a very good woman.

Get out of her pregnancy, it’s not for you and your mum to decide (try to change her mind to act as you both did) how she births her child.[/quote]
That's a pretty unpleasant thing to say .

The OP obviously cares deeply for her sister and doesn't want her to suffer unnecessarily.
Are people so busy to jump in with 'her body her choice' mantra trotted out parrot fashion a hundred times - that they cannot are beyond their sense of professional outrage.:

Judgy ?? Fucking Judgy ?? I wish people would learn some new vocabulary that has actual meaning rather than 'pop' phrases from social Meedja ! ! She's her sister . No doubt they have and will continue to swap opinions on a million issues for the next fifty years. God willing. It's called having a fucking conversation. Not 'judgy' but a difference of opinion.

Honestly it's like being on a group-think forum . Before the poster has even posted I can guarantee there will be a slew of posts consisting of the words ..
Not your business
Abuse/abuser
Judgy
Flying monkeys
Narc.

It's just tedious, unoriginal and meaningless.

Now the question .. an elective c section is obviously not the ideal. Mostly because of the higher chance of post op issues, and longer healing time. That is not to say that VB births are without risk either.
I would suggest you encourage your dsis to chat with a few people in real life who have had cs to get a more realistic idea of what to expect.

I would also make it really clear how little you and mum will be able to help- in order to manage her expectations.
Just as a last thing... is there any chance she is being coerced into a CS by partner ? Many men want their wives to have them as it keeps them 'tight' .. as her sister , and sound like a close one.. you may be able to discuss this with her.

However at the end of the day I am sure you will support her no matter what decision she ends up making.

The OP is clearly trying to get

I kind of see your point OP - I had two vaginal births with no medical intervention and they were amazing experiences. Truly transformative. But they went well and there were no complications and for that reason alone I would want to recommend them to expectant mothers rather than having a cesarean. However, and it's a big however.... it's really not great to dictate to another woman what choices she should make when it comes to giving birth - little sister or not. What if she took your advice about having a vaginal delivery and it went wrong? You would feel so terribly bad and she would probably struggle to forgive you. All you can do is give your opinion and then step away.

@Rainbowsandpotsofgold

Not at all...I have absolutely nothing at all against c sections...as long as the mother has looked at pros and cons for both options and made the decision from there and has had advice from midwives, drs, other women ect....my sisters decision made at 3 weeks pregnant before she had even had the pregnancy confirmed

And?

Maybe she had done a lot of research and got advice BEFORE getting pregnant that having an ELCS was the best option available to her.

I personally, spent several years doing this, then saw a doctor about whether it was possible to have an ELCS for mental health reasons BEFORE I got pregnant. NICE do now have a health care pathways for women in certain circumstanes to do this (although it is often extremely difficult to get an appointment due to demand and prioritisation). I got referred to a hospital consultant and discussed this at length BEFORE I got pregnant. The consultant approved my ELCS and told me to go get pregnant!

The subject and understanding has come someway in the years since I first started looking into it. There is a lot more information out there than their was. The reasons behind women are making this decision are still misunderstood by a great many but there is a much better understanding than there was and there has been a lot more research into the subject.

As I say the subject is extremely taboo, and its very difficult for a lot of women to reveal this to family - especially if they think they will be judged or someone will try and 'persuade' them about why they are 'wrong'. A lot never open up about it. And you yourself say your underlying relationship is pretty crap.

I've done a lot of threads on this subject over the years. When I've seen them I've always said that people need to be open to the alternative and look at the options, as everyone's own circumstances are very different, and to go into things with eyes wide open. Its NOT an easy option to have an ELCS. There is no 'right way' to give birth. Only the most appropriate for each individual woman.

I make a point that women who suffer from birth fear should try and explore the reasons for that because they can continue post birth if unresolved - and theres no guarentee that if you plan an ELCS you will 100% be guarenteed one. You have to have a plan B for unforeseen circumstance.

Ultimately the request should be seen as a red flag for something. Its a sign that a woman needs to feel in control and for some reason she does not feel that a VB will give her that.

I find that interesting particularly given the obvious family dynamic, where you feel you have to control her constantly even though she is a 29 year old adult.

You really really aren't helping matters and you aren't listening to a damn word on this thread. You are just repeating the mantra that she's wrong and needs to reconsider.

No she fucking doesn't. You do not know the thought process she has gone through, how much research she has done, how much she has discussed this with health care professionals nor how much she is willing to share with you about why.

Its a big step for many women to tell their friends and family that they are going to have an ELCS. You might want to reflect on how you are part of the problem rather than helping her make a decision.

And on that note, I will reflect on the point that consent and an informed decision can only be made when someone is not under 'undue presssure' to change their mind. That is what you are doing right now. Trying to pressure her unfairly.

Its not your place to be involved in this in any way. This is solely a decision to be made between her and her health care providers.

Again, please tell me why you think you are more qualified to help her make an educated and appropriate decision about her health than her doctors and midwives? Being her sister is not a qualification.

You're arrogant and your ego is so huge, you think you know it all, with your arguments lined up, like you're talking to an idiot which I'm sure she's not. You need to read the following and keep reading it until you 'get it'.

My Sister's decisions have nothing to do with me. I don't know what's best for her, only what's best for me and I need to mind my own
business.

@AlternativePerspective

Good luck to her if she thinks she can just say she’ll be having a c-section and they’ll give her one.

They won’t just do a c-section on demand unless there is a valid reason.

I said “I’d like a c section, please” and the consultant signed it off. 🤷🏻‍♀️

Vaginal birth attempt 1: EMCS after 40 hours of spontaneous labour and two hours of pushing. Ended up in HDU and baby being observed for a short time in NICU. Began to venture out of the house after 10 days not helped by zero fitness from SPD. Took recovery slowly and gently due to SPD and general toll on my body. Operating at normal functions by 8 weeks.

Vaginal birth attempt 2: ended up in theatre one push away from a rough EMCS where baby would have to be pushed up and out. The forceps worked to the cost of my pelvic floor and a 3rd degree tear. Was significantly compromised by pain for 3 months and didn't leave the house for the first month due to the strength of the laxitives. Pelvis/ pelvic floor never fully recovered.

Should have had an ELCS.
My babies and my pelvis didn't care about the natural way to have been born. Until the 1950s or in remote parts of the world we'd probably have been just another maternal mortality statistic.

Women have a right to bodily autonomy.

Of all the birth stories I've heard in the past decade, there have been very few "horror stories" from women having low-moderate risk ELCS. The worst tend to come from attempting vaginal delivery which ever way the baby came out.

If pain relief is more complex, better to have it than a non-emergency situation than after the big red button was pushed, all hell breaks loose and you're there confused and exhausted after hours/ days of labour and drugs.

You’re the SIL really, aren’t you? And there’s a backstory too. She’s got a degree or professional qualification ,whilst your family told you to finish school and ‘just’ be a mum.
She’s in a committed relationship with your ‘little ‘ brother really so the age difference is almost like a generation gap.

disorganisedsecretsquirrel

the patronising and unpleasant tone of the actual OP is not the tone of someone who cares deeply, it's literally someone who think they know best and are miffed the younger sister doesn't bow to the wisdom of the experienced and older sister

You don't put so many digs in a couple of paragraph if you genuinely care about someone's well being only.

And yes, absolutely, your body your choice!!!

So you are going to basically blackmail her into having the birth you want?
Have a VB or we won’t give you any support after.

What makes you think she hasn’t considered the pros and cons? She may have been thinking about this for a long time

I always said if I had children I would have had an elective section. As it happens it didn t happen for me, but I very much doubt 8 would have changed my mind,

Ultimately the request should be seen as a red flag for something. Its a sign that a woman needs to feel in control and for some reason she does not feel that a VB will give her that.

A lot of your post was very good, but not this bit. A woman might simply have considered the risks and benefits to both attempted VB and ELCS and have come to the conclusion that the latter are more acceptable to her. This doesn't need to pathologised. For all that tokophobia is a very real problem, it may not be about fear at all.

Also OP, have you bothered to consider the possibility that she might have reasons she doesn't feel comfortable sharing with you?

The use of MY baby sister tells you everything here. You sound possessive and controlling.

Sit down and be quiet and stop being patronising and interfering or you may find YOUR baby nephew or niece has no relationship with you because you have pissed off their mother, an adult woman who can make her own decisions, far too much.

OP there are many women on here who have suffered nosy family members telling them their choices of how to give birth, parent etc are "not what's best". That is why you're not getting a "supportive" response.

I have a friend who is currently pregnant and is planning to have a CS for mental health reasons, namely that she has been sexually abused and even the thought of a vaginal birth is causing her huge amounts of trauma. She hasn't told her siblings or parents this for a variety of reasons.

I hope to God she's not your sister.

@MomToTwoBabas

Yes she is being an idiot. Leave her to it though let her be in agony for ages after a c section not being able to pick up her own baby. She wont do it again.

By no means always the case

I had three elective sections for non medical reasons. All calm, amazing experiences which I fondly look back on. Music playing, chatting to the surgeons / anaesthetist/ nurses, DH with me, babies all happy when they popped out. Recovery was uncomfortable for a day or two but perfectly manageable. Compared to the 10 others in my antenatal group who had a mixture of VBs and emergency sections after hellish labours I was the only one who had happy memories of the birthing experience.

I’d recommend it to anyone and if my daughter wanted an elective section I’d support her all the way.

Fucking Judgy ?? I wish people would learn some new vocabulary that has actual meaning rather than 'pop' phrases from social Meedja ! ! She's her sister . No doubt they have and will continue to swap opinions on a million issues for the next fifty years. God willing. It's called having a fucking conversation. Not 'judgy' but a difference of opinion

This is remarkable. You don’t know what judgy means? Or you do know what it means, but nonetheless suggest it doesn’t have actual meaning?

It is short for judgemental, and I’m sure you know the “actual meaning” of that word.

One can have a difference of opinion without being judgmental. but one can also be judgmental in how they express their disagreement (or in this case disapproval) and the OP has crossed that line.

Or if you don’t agree she has crossed that line then ok, but your rant about how judgy doesn’t mean anything and people are popping phrases from social media is ridiculous.

YABU. let her make her own choice.

@Rainbowsandpotsofgold

No interference from me..my mum, gran and myself have had 1 conversation with her to try and get her to CONSIDER a natural birth and nothing has been said since.....I would never not support her decision but in our opinion she hasn't considered the pros and cons for each option and I was hoping that by asking for as many different opinions as I could.....maybe I could have worded my original post differently and honestly I didnt expect to be called obnoxious and vile...but silly me expected an adult conversation/ debate with a lot of women who have pros and cons for both natural birth and a c section.

Yes it is her decision and I will 100% support that...doesn't change the fact that we dont think she has considered her decision from all angles and is blinkered by what she thinks is her easiest option without considering the risks involved. Yes there are risks with a natural delivery but what about the risks involved with, however routine it may be, what still amounts to major surgery

What you mean is that she won't change her mind and do what you want her to do.

She'll have a medical team to discuss pros and cons with and have risks explained.
Being decisive one way or another doesn't mean she's dumb or she doesn't understand,just that she knows what she wants.

1. Not your body, not your baby
2. See above

@Rainbowsandpotsofgold

Jealous? How'd you work that one out? I lived at home until my daughter was 3 so I could continue my education...so yes I did have alot of support. She will have far less living 30 miles away...something that we have no control over. And seeing as this is a very very much anticipated addition to our family, we hate that we wont be able to give her all the support she deserves

You could support her by not causing her additional stress putting pressure on her to have a vaginal birth?

This can’t be real. It’s no business of yours whether she has a vaginal birth or a c-section. I’ve had both.
My first was a vaginal birth following an induction. It was horrendous - I torn because of the forceps and struggled to sit down and walk for weeks it was so painful.
I put off having a second child after that birth experience but we really wanted a second child. I was anxious in the run up to another induction. This one was worse than the first and failed. I had an emergency c-section. Within 2 weeks I was going out for lunch and taking the eldest to school, driving in 4 weeks (after okaying it with the insurance company). And I picked up my baby from day one. Yes it hurt but if we have another I’ll definitely go straight to c-section.
Her experience with a c-section might be different to mine and she may struggle but it’s her decision. If she does then if you’re a loving family then help her

@Sweetmotherofallthatisholyabov

I think the moral of all the stories is childbirth is basically a shit show and short of a crystal ball no one knows what they're in for really in terms of sailing through or complications whatever way they give birth.

However, have you considered she was 9 years old when you were at home in slow labour for 5 days and what effect that might have had on her as a child? She might have been terrified, she might have been ill informed, she might have thought you were in pain, or at risk, or that something was wrong. Things like that can have a deep impact on someone. She could be truly terrified of the prospect of natural birth and the thought of a section is making her pregnancy a much nicer experience.

I'm terrified of a section, completely traumatised at the idea of it and my last was breech and having the section hanging over me for 10 weeks till he turned was horrific. Random spontaneous bouts of tears about it. So I can imagine she's happy to remove that ambiguity.

I do believe that there has been a little research in this area and there is a suggestion that a cause of some cases of tokophobia is seeing / nearing something to do with childbirth at an early age which leads to long lasting trauma or fear which is very difficult to unpick because it was a key point in a child's development. Its emotional rather than logical so its something that can't be reasoned with easily. It becomes like an instinctive way to protect yourself.

Without handling it and understanding this, moves to force a woman into a situation she is uncomfortable with can produce a fight or flight type response. Women who have high levels of birth anxiety are much more likely to end up with medical intervention than a completely natural birth. (And this is thought to be associated with this fight or flight response).

Women who were forced to give birth (either a VB or a CS) in a way they were very much opposed to have much higher levels of birth trauma than others.

Risk in child birth is not equally stacked. We need to understand better how the mental health side of it can affect the physical outcomes and that how seriously we treat this - rather than being utterly dismissive of it - is really important.

The BEST thing that doctors and midwives can do is validate someone's fears and build a relationship. Many women that do this and initially were adament they wanted a CS go on to have a VB because the issue is about how they are respected and treated as much as the actual method of birth. They need to be in an environment where they feel safe and that if thing go wrong they can be in control of it and will be listened to rather than suffer.

I don't have fibro so that isnt a factor for me. But I've had an induction with epidural, natural birth, and planned c-section (that I disagreed with but my hospital refused to let me try). Anyway. Induction was the worst for me. Natural was the best... Felt like a fucking superhero after that one. And c-section was in the middle. I had an easy recovery. BUT.... I went into labor at the hospital in the day if my scheduled csec. I labored for a out 3 hours until the surgery. So didn't escape labor haha.