AIBU to give my child an Irish name in the UK?

[FolkSongSweet]

Posting here for traffic. I’ve seen a few heated debates on this on baby name threads recently. I’m considering giving my child an Irish name where the pronunciation isn’t obvious from the spelling. We live in London. Will this be a huge burden to the child when they grow up/a mild annoyance, or not an issue?

(NB this issue could obviously theoretically apply to lots of names, not just Irish ones, but Irish ones are what I’m considering)

YABU - don’t give your child a tricky name
YANBU - it’s not a big deal, people will learn

But there was a little girl who started new when one of mine was at nursery and the name on her scooter was Saorise. I thought it was a lovely name, but when I asked if she would like to come to ours for a play, the mum was really rude because I didn’t pronounce the name properly. But how would you know until you has heard it

That's really silly. I only met a Saorise for the first time about two years ago and I am in my late 40s. I had no idea how you say the name but fortunately she has an explanation in her Twitter profile so I didn't embarrass myself. What's the point of being offended?

@OwlBeThere - oh Gwenllian is a gorgeous name. How do you find people manage the Ll?

Esyllt is my favourite name for a girl but DH doesn't like it and I don't think I can live with 'Ess-ilt'. I love Eira, Alys, Mari, Morwenna and Tesni which are hopefully reasonably easy for people to learn how to say once told!

@TheKeatingFive

There's no "orn" in Siobhán!! it's pronounced Shiv-awn

In fairness the ‘awn’ can sometimes sound like there’s a R in it. Like a D4 accent for example.

I much prefer Ni-av.

I find the intricacies of accents and pronunciation very interesting, particularly in ireland and the UK where there’s so much variation.

Flashbacks of the threads on here which debated whether giraffe can legitimately be rhymes with scarf (Smartest Giant in Town). Now they were intense.

I can't even get my head around how Giraffe and Scarf could ever rhyme?

In some accents "orn" and "awn" are the same.

I can't even get my head around how Giraffe and Scarf could ever rhyme?

Me either. But a vocal minority said they did.

@BigBlondeBimbo - But Maud is also an Irish name, sorry. So a foot in both camps...kind of.

No it’s not. Some Anglo-Irish women would certainly have been called Maud but that was because they tended to use English names

@OwlBeThere, it is Philippa not Phillipa.
How do non-welsh speakers say Gwenllïan?

@cologne4711, Saorise? Is that an Irish name or a misspelling of Saoirse. Is it pronounced Sayrees?

With regards to one of the examples here Sadhbh - I'm in NI and the first time I had to call someone with this name in a waiting room I hadn't a clue how to go about saying it. So I simply called her by her surname and said "I'm sorry, I wasn't sure to to pronounce your first name and I didn't want to get it wrong". She told me and I made a point of remembering. It's basic manners to get people's names right, imo.

@DanDean - Saorise? Is that an Irish name or a misspelling of Saoirse. Is it pronounced Sayrees?

It must be a misspelling as Saorise breaks spelling rules regarding board and slender vowels.

@DanDean...you’re correct, though the point still stands that it makes no sense phonetically.
There is no ï in Gwenllian, there are people who struggle to pronounce it at first, but most manage it with a little bit of effort, there is nothing inherently different about non-welsh people’s mouths that prevents them pronouncing ‘ll’ properly.

@CaffiSaliMali thank you! I love her name, she was named after my Naini, those who really can’t manage the ‘ll’ just call her Gwen which she’s fine with.

@OwlBeThere, there is.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwenllian#:~:text=Gwenllian%20(or%20Gwenll%C3%AFan)%20(Welsh,Welsh%20patriotism%20and%2For%20independence.

@DanDean are you welsh speaking? In all my years reading and studying in welsh I’ve never seen an umlaut in the welsh language.

@OwlBeThere, It's not an umlaut, it's a diaeresis.
Are you a welsh speaker or a learner?

I'd guess at Gwenllian meaning a lot of Gwen-lilian, Gwen-hilian, Gwendoline, Gwenly-un, Gwenthly-Ann type attempts (shudder). The short form is Llio not Gwen.

The following is right:

The one that followed it was not right.

[quote OchonAgusOchonO]**@BigBlondeBimbo* - But Maud is also an Irish name, sorry. So a foot in both camps...kind of.*

No it’s not. Some Anglo-Irish women would certainly have been called Maud but that was because they tended to use English names[/quote]
Interesting, yes, thanks. Someone else clarified this for me up thread. I wrongly thought it was Irish. Probably because of Maud Gonne and also the woman I know called Maud, who came from a proudly Irish family. Now wondering if it was actually a proud Anglo-Irish family who spoke Irish at home.

there is nothing inherently different about non-welsh people’s mouths that prevents them pronouncing ‘ll’ properly

My DH's first language is Polish. I cannot hear any difference at all between what he says are two different sounds in Polish- really hard for me to explain properly, but it's as if he couldn't tell the difference between how "f" and "th" sound in English, or "oh" and "ew". Because I cannot hear any difference in the pronunciation of sound a and sound b, I cannot pronounce them properly. It's not that my mouth physically can't make the shape to say the right sound, but 17 years in and I still can't say the sound because I can't hear that it's any different from another sound!

I know I have explained this so badly, and I also suspect that I am more than averagely challenged when it comes to learning additional languages.

@BigBlondeBimbo - Now wondering if it was actually a proud Anglo-Irish family who spoke Irish at home.

Proud Anglo-Irish family would be unlikely to speak Irish

Presumably she was named after Maud Gonne.

@DanDean I’m first language welsh I know how you pronounce it, it’s my daughters name, it was my grandmothers name. A short form of a name can be anything you choose, surely??
For instance I know many Christopher’s, some are Chris, some are Kit, some are Topher. Short forms of Alexander include Al, Alex, Xander, Xand.
My friends called Myfanwy are known respectively as Myfs and Fanw. Gwen just works easier in her English university.

there is nothing inherently different about non-welsh people’s mouths that prevents them pronouncing ‘ll’ properly.

Not in the mouth shape, but in the brain there is. Even before birth, children start to become attuned to the sounds of their native language(s) and the neural pathways for various sounds that don't crop up in those languages gradually shut down and get repurposed over time. The brain becomes more specialised in order to focus on the particular languages actually spoken in the baby's environment. It's why bilingualism becomes much harder the later the second language is introduced. People who are not Welsh speakers can obviously learn Welsh as children/adults, but the ll sound will be harder to fix in the brain if it's not a sound that exists in the languages they already speak.

@unmarkedbythat, lots of people are like you, only this is MN and apparently everyone can teach others to pronounce a name perfectly.

there is nothing inherently different about non-welsh people’s mouths that prevents them pronouncing ‘ll’ properly

there is nothing inherently different about french people’s mouths that prevents them pronouncing 'th’ properly.

@DanDean - only this is MN and apparently everyone can teach others to pronounce a name perfectly.

I think the vast majority of people with a foreign name accept a pronunciation that is in and around correct. They recognise that some sounds are difficult for people who don't have the same background.

The only time I ever got annoyed was when a colleague told me she preferred her mispronunciation and would continue to use it. I am happy to accept a reasonable attempt as are most.

@OchonAgusOchonO, I gave an example a few posts ago of approximations for a welsh name, and none of them are acceptable.

I think there's a difference between something like Daniela (Italian) being called Daniella (UK accent) where both names are nice and Soairse being called So-airs or Saorise.

@OwlBeThere, the i diaeresis (alt 0239) often gets replaced with i but it appears in words like gwnïo and gweddïo.

I think there's a difference between something like Daniela (Italian) being called Daniella (UK accent) where both names are nice and Soairse being called So-airs or Saorise.

So-airs or Saorise are not reasonable approximations. They are somebody not making any effort at figuring out how to pronounce the name.

I'm referring to people making a good attempt at saying the name. However, if someone's accent adds an r or equally removes an r, that they will do so with the name. So someone referring to Siobhán as Shiv-awrn because that is what their accent does to that sound is, in my experience, a reasonable approximation and usually acceptable.

I worked with someone (Irish) whose siblings gloried in names like 'Assumpta'. She has a very 'ordinary' name in comparison.

I’m embarrassed to admit that I apparently can’t pronounce Soairse correctly. In my head and ears it sounds correct but apparently I’m saying it wrong. A work acquaintance used to get annoyed with me, but she also knew that I was genuinely trying. Weirdly, I can pronounce loads of other Irish names that others find difficult. It’s weird and I’d love if someone could spell it phonetically for me please.