To ask what mainstream parents really think about the kids with special needs.

[Willbob]

I have a child with SEN. He has complex needs; statement at three transferred to ehcp. We had to fight for a mainstream setting. He has full time 1:1. My older childer is very bright and now goes to a selective grammar school for secondary education. I had the "normal" school parent experience with him.

Other parents at school are mainly pleasant, some more so than others like any parent really but completely different to my my experience with my older child. I do wonder though for those who don't understand or know the sen world what you really think about the kids in your child school like my son? I imagine some like it and see the value of having them there, where as some see them as a drain on funding or a distraction. Just curious really. Though this maybe a good place to ask as anonymous.

@MrDarcysBritches You’ve copied in the wrong person to your post.

When I first joined the school I used to work at (SAHM now) I had a little boy with Autism in my class. The children in my class had all been together since Reception and knew “Daniel” (not his real name) behaved differently to them, but they had obviously grown up knowing that different didn’t mean bad. They were very accepting of him and included him.
One day sticks in my mind where a new boy joined the class. Daniel made one of his loud noises and the new boy looked up, laughed, then looked around to see who was going to join in with him. Literally not one child even batted an eyelid, they just carried on working. So the new boy had no choice but to do the same. The reaction of my class taught that little boy more about inclusivity and kindness than I, as the teacher, could ever have done in that moment.
I was so proud of them, they really were a fab bunch of kids. And they benefited from having Daniel in their class in so many ways.

@IHateCoronavirus The situation you describe with the child who needed to be held all day is just awful - for you, the child and their classmates. Honestly I’m amazed that that set up was allowed to happen. Did the child eventually move to a more suitable school?

I really don’t know an awful lot about most children in my children’s classes, unless they have been disruptive in class and my children have mentioned it to me. Generally I don’t consider other people’s children any of my business, unless they are negatively impacting my child in some way in which case it’s the schools job to deal with that, SN or not.

The only time I would care about another kid in the class is if they were severely disrupting it or bullying my child and this has never been a kid with SEN at our school as far as I'm aware. Just the little badly behaved brats you get in most years.
We've had autistic children, deaf, blind - or almost blind, and ones with ADHD and they're treated no differently by the children. The children know there's certain activities they don't do sometimes, or they have a TA or parent in helping them, or Jim won't be going on the tube to the museum as he hates crowds so gets a taxi, or Sarah has been taught to type rather than handwrite because of her eyes or mobility but that's it.
It's a fairly steady school intake wise - perhaps that makes the difference, the kids have been together all through nursery to Year 6 without many leavers or newcomers.

I am also cynical enough to see that pushy parents end up with better diagnoses and support

This is so true, we once had, Year 7, a boy whose father could have written the manual, he knew it backwards and made sure that his son got exactly what it said, he told us that he didn't give a damn about others with the same perceived problems. His son was allocated maximumsupport even though there were others with a greater need.

Honestly, I feel that children with severe SEN should not be in mainstream. I think it is a distraction for the majority and not in the best interest of the child.

I did not fear my (nt) dc was missing attention due to the child with sen in the class, that child had a 1:1 and I don't believe was disruptive. However I could not see how the child with sen was receiving any type of education there, the sen was severe and I felt the school was acting as a respite service rather than education as the child did not participate in the learning. The child then moved to a sen school, which was not what their parents wanted, but by all accounts is thriving there. It seems such a shame for that child they had to prove they couldn't manage MS education, I can only imagine what a negative experience it was.

A girl at son's primary had Downs...and she was accepted by the other children, and the parents...Why shouldn't she be? She wasn't disruptive, but quite easily distracted..and perhaps that is what parents may worry about?
A college had students that need scribes to do their maths notes..but all students were taught together.

[quote Haworthia]@IHateCoronavirus The situation you describe with the child who needed to be held all day is just awful - for you, the child and their classmates. Honestly I’m amazed that that set up was allowed to happen. Did the child eventually move to a more suitable school?[/quote]
I left before the child (he was in yr 2 at the time). Heartbreaking. Ed psych said we we had excellent provision in place. We were ofsteded while he was in my class and she came in while I was doing 1:1 work with him. She praised us for what we had put in place for him but she said she had never seen such needs in mainstream. Mum caught to keep him with us. She was struggling coming to terms with his needs to the point she didn’t tell us anything until the day he arrived. He hadn’t been to nursery. It was the most extreme burying head in sand we had ever seen.

I am also cynical enough to see that pushy parents end up with better diagnoses and support

I think you’re on shaky ground to insinuate that pushy parents get “better diagnoses”, because the insinuation is that the parent is lying about or faking their child’s issues. This is something I see thrown around a lot (“faking autism to get support”, “faking ADHD to get extra time in exams”) and it’s extremely damaging to perpetuate this utter myth that disabilities are routinely faked and diagnostic teams can be fooled.

This is so true, we once had, Year 7, a boy whose father could have written the manual, he knew it backwards and made sure that his son got exactly what it said, he told us that he didn't give a damn about others with the same perceived problems. His son was allocated maximumsupport even though there were others with a greater need.

You see that as a pushy parent denying support to more needy children. I see it as a pushy parent making damn sure their child gets the support to which they are entitled.

Yes, I take the point that there will often be a difference between middle class SEN parents and disadvantaged SEN parents. I just don’t think we should level the playing field by lowering the bar for everyone.

I sometimes think that parents with children who have an EHCP underestimate how cruel mainstream education can sometimes be for their child. They exercise their rights to choose the school often for reasons wholly unconnected with the needs of that child; location, family ties, etc, and of course, that is their prerogative.

I have seen several sides of the equation as a governor, a SENCO and non-SEN parent. Mainstream school is often not the holy grail but some parents (and sadly they are often the ones who can't accept their child has needs that most mainstream schools can't easily meet) fight to the bitter end to achieve it. Downstream, they realise that it wasn't the right fit, their child is miserable or they don't have the facilities to adequately meet some specialised need and so the child is removed and has to start over in a specialised setting.

So, what I would say is when I see an SEN child in a mainstream setting I hope they are integrating well for their self-esteem, I hope their needs are being met and I hope they are happy and settled. I sincerely hope that it is not an 'experiment' or a trial which will mean the child has to start over.

I also hope none of that has had to be achieved at the cost of disadvantaging other pupils by using scarce resources to fund it when a special school setting already has those on tap.

Essentially, I hope it has been well thought through and that it works.

My experiences have been similar to @BoobsOnTheMoon and @Houseplanted.

I have two DC with additional needs. One is autistic with a degree of developmental delay, the other is autistic with ARFID, both have hypermobility and one has significant coordination difficulties due to the hypermobility. One has an EHC and the other is in the process of obtaining an EHC.

I have had a parent at school tell me that "it's not fair" DS gets extra help because all of the children could benefit from that level of support and it seems a waste to focus it on one child, the unspoken implication being that my child is a write-off so why throw the money away.

The other children in school used to be a mix oblivious and inclusive then its gradually declined over the years as they've developed and matured but DS hasn't, socially and emotionally he is falling further and further behind. He's been back at school for a week now and we've already had tears and school refusal because he's been called a baby and a r-word (we all know which r-word). School say its not acceptable but they can't put a permanent stop to it.

Younger DS is at the start of this decline of inclusion. He had a collision with another child a while ago and the other parents made on that DS had assaulted her son (they were 5), she "called me out" on FB about it by making a status saying DS shouldn't be in a school with normal children if he can't control himself. Even after it was proven to be an accident and that her son was the one who crashed into my son she didn't apologise. He's not violent child and actually really quiet in school but it is clear from some if his actions and the way he carries himself that he's not entirely a typical child. No one plays with DS at break times and I can't help but wonder how much of it is down to other parents telling their children to just stay away from him because he's odd.

In an ideal world, all children would be support in school and full inclusion would be the norm but we don't live in an ideal world. People can be ignorant and they pass that ignorance along to their children, schools are strapped for cash and some schools are shit at handling pupils with additional needs to the extent that you wonder whether they're being obstructive on purpose, and the support system is broken.

@JayDot500

Until a classmate has negative interactions with their child/the class parents don't generally think ill of any child they don't know (I'd like to believe anyway). SEN is definitely not always the main factor.

Yes, this. Two of my DC have been hurt physically quite badly by other DC at school. One was by a boy who had a dx, the other case I don't think there is a dx. In both instances my response was directed towards the school who were inadequate in the behavioural management and safeguarding of my children. I probably felt a bit more sympathetic towards the family of the boy who was hurting my son, because I knew they were coming to terms with his diagnosis. I felt both my DC and the DC who hurt them were being let down by the school. My DC also have had strong friendships with children with SEN (autism, Downs syndrome, etc). Another of my DC has a processing disorder and I have experienced people's assumptions about him when he has needed learning support (he is the "cleverest" of my DC, but people have assumed otherwise when they found out he was entitled to extra time in exams, etc). One of my DC has a medical condition which required support when he was younger, and I have definitely experienced the attitude from other parents that he was a drain on resources, potential disruption to their children's learning, etc.., so I understand what you are asking about.

@QuestionMarkNow

I think, and I think this thread has shown it a bit too, that most parents don't care unless it impacts their own child negatively.

what does it mean to affect their child negatively though? being hit is quite clear cut. But expecting their dcs to actually mix up and be kind to said child? Nope that doesnt happen either, even to the nice ones who don't have any 'behavioural' issues. It's all brushed under the carpet under the 'well they are not friends'.
I've seen it with a child with SEN in my onw dc class and with my dc too.

What they are talking about is that they are toerated because they don't cause problem. Not that they are accepted/not an issue/happy to be there.

I also think that a lot of the discourse about been happy for thier dcs to mix woth children with SN is a lot of posturing, the same way many people say they are not racist etc... whilst racism is endemic at all level in the uk.

This feels a bit damned if you do, damned if you don’t.

If your child doesn’t play that the child with SN, they’re being exclusionary. If you encourage them to, it’s posturing?

I think you’re on shaky ground to insinuate that pushy parents get “better diagnoses”, because the insinuation is that the parent is lying about or faking their child’s issues. This is something I see thrown around a lot (“faking autism to get support”, “faking ADHD to get extra time in exams”) and it’s extremely damaging to perpetuate this utter myth that disabilities are routinely faked and diagnostic teams can be fooled.

Thank you for posting this!

I have a DC with sn and I really object to the idea that they are always distuptive or difficult in class. My DD is the exact opposite...she is compliant and quite quiet. She wouldn't dream of doing anything that would be considered disruptive

I think that depending on the disability mainstream is often not in the best interests of the child. And I speak as someone who attended a specialist school (I am registered blind).

I think that often parents fight for mainstream because it is often difficult for a parent to think that their child is different and putting that child into an educational setting with other children like them makes it look as if they’re excluding them from mainstream society when actually, often it is the reverse.

There are a lot of outside groups for e.g. children with visual impairments/hearing impairments/other disabilities because many of these children are pushed into a society where they are different, and where there is nobody else like them.

When I was growing up specialist school was the norm, however now mainstream is, and from my experience many people with serious visual impairments gravitate straight back towards the VI-related colleges by 6th form, and then towards friendships with people with a visual impairment. I even know one or two who say that it was only when they actually started mixing with others with a visual impairment that they felt truly accepted, but just thought they were accepted in mainstream when actually their mainstream friends/acquaintances were clearly not as accepting of them as they’d thought.

I think it’s even harder for a child who is educated in mainstream until they’re at secondary age and then a decision needs to be made to send them to a more specialist school or unit, thus giving them the clear message that actually they’re not suited to a mainstream environment, or have passed the point when they are and now need to be educated elsewhere.

The problem arises with the fact that there are so few specialist schools available and many of those are not local, and as such parents often need to A, fight for the places, and b, often it means the child having to board.

I don’t think it should be a case of asking what the other children think/get from the experience, it should be more a question of what the child gains from the experience.

I would say that if a parent needs to fight for a place in mainstream rather than specialist, then the disability is severe as these specialist places aren’t just given and it’s usually the other way around, and perhaps the parent needs to ask themselves whether mainstream really is in the best interests of their child.

There was a MN’er many years ago who had fought for her child to be educated in mainstream. The child had severe CP, was non verbal, could not move arms and legs etc, and TBH I did wonder whether that was in the best interests of the child.

I think primary aged kids are more accepting, but secondary aged kids not so much. Not only of children with disabilities, but those who don’t conform to certain habits/hobbies/interests etc, and often children with disabilities will be caught up in that.

You see that as a pushy parent denying support to more needy children. I see it as a pushy parent making damn sure their child gets the support to which they are entitled

When applying for the EHC for DS we got advice from an advocacy service. They told us in ni uncertain terms that the approach to take is to concentrate solely and entirely of your child and your child's needs. They said to come at it from the angle of "my child needs X because Y and Z is what will happen if they don't get it" and to be singlemindedly blunt about it rather than "my child needs X but only if it doesn't inconvenience the other children..."

I've yet to encounter the Mn thread [...] into which @Xenia cannot shoehorn her return to work as soon as the placenta was delivered and her children's academically selective private education from the moment of birth

But never claimed hotel bedroom in Paris as her own to my memory so still many miles to go for top trumps

I'm happy for my kids to go to school with anyone and would feel sad really if sen children were separated, unless it's what their families think best.

I feel I don't understand it very well, there's no one in my immediate circle with complex needs or full-time 1:1 etc. So I don't really know very much.

I can tell you what some of them think because I too have a child that was in mainstream and their opinion was all over social media! His diagnosis was no excuse for his behaviour, he's just an evil child. It's bad parenting. His parents think he's an angel. They get preferential treatment. He shouldn't be in that school. He gets away with everything.
Then there were the threats about what would happen if he hurt or upset their child. So bad the school asked me to collect early one day.
Mainly the opinion was he shouldn't be there. Well no shit Sherlock! Try getting a child out of mainstream into sen school quickly!
Over and over and over the assumption from other parents, teachers, support workers, camhs, sure start, family and friends has been that it's the parenting that's the problem. I have the certificates from all the courses I have been forced onto to prove it (access to services depends on you doing this).
Imagine what this does to a kid!
Now happily in SEN school. Now the parents just pity me I think!

I don’t think mainstream education is the place for kids with complex SEN. There was a kid in my daughters class and he was barely controllable. It proved stressful for the teachers and affected the rest of the class. There was no benefit to anybody but the school persisted so I had to do something otherwise she wasn’t getting an education. Luckily we could afford to send her to an Independent School. The difference was truly shocking. My other two went to the local Grammar , where the standard of teaching and expectation of results excluded , “ distraction”.

DS1 has SEN and attends a special school. He was at a mainstream infant school, which was a horrendous experience for him in spite of having a superb 1:1 LSA. We tried to move him to a special school much earlier than he did move, and the headteacher of the mainstream infant school told us "you haven't got a chance at getting him into a special school, he'll have to completely fail in mainstream first".

Over and over and over the assumption from other parents, teachers, support workers, camhs, sure start, family and friends has been that it's the parenting that's the problem

Same. Its exhausting and at every review/appointment/meeting there will almost always be some bright spark with suggests a sticker chart, just saying no, or simply telling the child they have to do