AIBU to give up a life's work to see my kids grow up

[doctormumoftwo]

I am thinking of leaving my job and I desperately need advice from other people who may have been in my position. I have two children who are 2 and 6. I work as a junior doctor/surgeon and am halfway through my training/exams. My DH is a full time a doctor. I love my job but it is very stressful. We could get by on DH salary alone but it would mean a big change in lifestyle (no holidays etc). I acknowledge I am very lucky to be in this position. I have been part time since I started but I am falling behind on my surgery and I have realised I can't continue part time as I need more surgical experience to gain competency. I also have final exams to take which means many hours of revision. I will be working flat out for the next 5 years minimum (nights, weekends, exams etc). Due to COVID our parents can not longer help regularly. It will be less stressful (but still demanding) as a consultant. DH cannot go part time to help. Despite the long hours we work, we can't afford private school, we live in a small flat with no garden. We will have to put the kids in school/nursery from 0745 - 6pm 5 days a week, or have a nanny for >50hrs for us to both work. My child's school is not great, there is not much community outside the school. My heart breaks for them, especially the 2 year old. I feel like I am sacrificing their childhood for my career. I have worked so hard to get where I am, invested money, time and incredible effort, but it feels like the demands of my job are just not compatible with being a decent mother. I don't know what to do. Our part time nanny recently quit handed in her notice. My child's reading is falling behind and they always ask me to play but I don't have the time to give them. I am thinking of giving up work and being a mum. I feel so guilty to continue leaving them for so many hours. I don't think a part time solution is going to work any longer because of the surgery, as I am falling behind and I spend many of my unpaid days off at work 'catching up'. I enjoy my job but I am incredibly stressed and sad about the toll it is taking on us all- that I know will not end for many more years. What should I do?

Why would a well-chosen nanny be a stranger? They might be a much loved part of the family. Dsis and BIL had nannies for their DC and the DC (now adults) are still in touch with them 20 years later. In one case attending the nanny's wedding which was abroad.

OP - great to read your update. Your children will be fine - you just need to sort the childcare. They will be very proud of you and you're a fantastic role model

"Just locum"

As a surgeon? In one of those 9-5 surgical locums that come up all the time...

If OP steps out of training, it needs to be in a formal, protected, well thought out way. If she quits and 'just locums', there could be no way back.

"You'll never get that time back". The mind numbing nappies, puzzles, standing at play groups making polite conversation, or lonely hanging around the park, while you child ignores you? Well, thank God I never get that back. "Don't leave your child with strangers"- you know people don't just get nannies off the streets, right? That they are childcare professionals? That these are people who enjoy that boring shit? They're good at singing the wheels on the bus, OP is good at taking out appendixes.

I do hope your DH steps up too OP

The reason he doesn't feel guilty is because he is a man and no-one seriously expects him to parent his children. He's a saint if he does but if he chooses not to it's no issue
A million little comments and expectations will cement for him that this is true.

If he refuses to drop to 80% he leaves you still shouldering the guilt because you are a woman so it will always be yours. It is much harder for you to choose to work FT than it is for him.

I hope he can see this and that he is a very good man who loves you and your kids enough to challenge these engrained expectations because it's only by men like him stepping up that this will ever become easier for your daughter. Maybe that argument might persuade him.

Men in medicine really are doing this now. I reckon it's only in the last 5 years ( and I will admit the first time I was very surprised and assumed he was an Olympic sportsman) but I have had a succession of male LTFT trainees now doing 60-80% (not in surgery granted). This rotation I have my first ever male- female job sharers (not married to one another). If I ever get a male-male job share I will know we are really making progress.

My DH is not a medic. He is self employed and has a less prestigious and less well paid career and more flexibility. Thus he did more school stuff (although it was me who worked PT when they were pre-school) Still people expressed surprise that it was him and not me at most school events. Some of them thought I was dead apparently. In response I used to say 'well it makes sense financially' as if that were the only excuse (apart from being dead) for a father and not the mother to turn up to the nativity play. Now I say 'we like to share things equally' because actually we do. DH likes his job and I like mine and we should both get to work and to parent if we want to.

There are a few memories related to potty training that I would happily sacrifice

Glad you have a p plan that works for you, OP. Good luck and I have nothing but admiration for you and other women in big jobs (from a woman in a medium job who is wistful that she could have done more. Although my race is not yet run).

Even as teens mine appreciate me being around and it means far more to me than being at the pinnacle of my profession

The OP isn't close to the pinnacle yet, but still training.
If she doesn't complete it, she'll have to take a huge step back. Think not finishing a degree or a PhD after years already into it.
There are periods when we do have to choose what parts of our lives to favour.
The OP isn’t abandoning her children, just arranging for someone else to care for her children for a number of hours.

I have similar wobbles but in your case OP, it's a worthy career that you love... definitely keep going, just find a way and things will get easier once you are a consultant.

DH is happy to sort out and pay for childcare, wash up, do chores... but doesnt provide any emotional support like a mum would. He plays with them a little but like me doesnt have much free time or energy left after work.

On my side I have to grapple with a souless bureaucratic corporate job i hate but pays well and impossible to get back into if i take a 5 year break. Not possible part time or to step down a notch without a massive cut in which case I'd rather just do something else. Not possible to progress any further without sacrificing even more time with kids. I dont have the balls to change careers mainly cos staying on means I can contribute to private schooling which I want to hang on to as an option because one DC is difficult and may need it.

I had nannies since they were babies but now they are in primary school, I could really do with being part time even if nowadays I dont physically need to do very much for them. Nannies can do a lot but they do not replace or represent a parent; they obviously dont do everything your way and do end up influencing your children subliminally.

OP I am so glad about your update and your plans. Sounds already a better and more manageable place. Your dh does not think the children need someone because he hs not been with them long enough tomknow that they do. But he will. It will benefit him in the long run to have a more rounded vision of his family and his life. He will lose you all if he puts all his egg in the work basket. It will be hard to convince him but you will do it. I can tel you are strong willed and capable. Well done.

“DH likes his job and I like mine and we should both get to work and to parent if we want to.”

This should be the basis of every relationship. When I got onto mine I assumed it was going to be this way. Assuming, I learnt the hard way, it is not the same as knowing. Society does not back this up so it is an uphill struggle. But it has to be done, for your own sake, that of your daughters and sons who will also benefit for less tight gender roles.

I think what people don't get is its quite hard to do medicine 'just a bit'. You can't really just stop at a lower grade for a while and move up again when it suits you.

You are in a training programme for 8-10 years post qualifying and you have to make progress every year, meet expectations and pass exams or you are out. If you are out you lose your 'training number' and you can't get it back at a later date as it's hard to get one especially for surgery. You could get a staff grade job but you would very rarely be able to go back and train to be a consultant at some later date (there are ways but these are very hard)

Perhaps surprisingly after 5yrs at medical school a medical degree alone is not worth very much unless you then complete your 2yr foundation programme. Without that you would not be able to get a staff grade job and you'd struggle even to get very low paid junior locum jobs so you are in for 2yrs post graduation minimum to make it worth it at all. In fact most staff grades have more like 5 years post grad training so they have 2yrs foundation and 3 in a specialty but then leave before the additional 3-5 (and more exams) to become a consultant.

They leave because all this time you are changing jobs every 6 months, often changing hospital and facing commuting or moving house every 6 months, doing crazy shift patterns and also studying for exams in your own time. Usually you get very little notice of your shift patterns or even your expected working days when going to a new job and you have to somehow rejig your childcare every 6 months on no notice.

Talk of taking 5 years out altogether and going back is just not realistic at all. You would lose your licence to practice if you don't show evidence and have an appraisal every year. There are some specific returners schemes for GP but none that I know of for surgery. You'd have to be very determined, probably do observer posts for free and then start again from the bottom rung.

OP therefore either has to push through all this to consultant where at least the job is permanent, all the exams are done, on call is usually less onerous and you can dictate your own terms more or she has to quit training without the exams and extra years and try to get a staff grade job but this will mean realistically losing the opportunity of making consultant at any point.

So it's double or quit really. It's not the pinnacle of your career vs an average career its basically make consultant or don't really have a career at all. There's a lot to be said for getting through this shitty bit as fast as possible (ie full time) and having kids once you make consultant.

I need to object to all the deathbed shenigans.

Yes, you may have regrets in the days leading up to your death (if you know it’s coming), but what about the thousands of days you are alive?

I have a really good brain, had a great job and realistically will now never go back to anything of substance because one of my children has extra needs.

I suspect that if you are someone who has managed to get this far juggling surgical training and small babies/children, you are not going to feel fulfilled having an extra 60 minutes to get out the door in a relaxed fashion, or time to knock together a yummy supper, rather than flinging together a stir fry.

Much of parenting is actually cleaning, washing, waiting, chauffeuring (and for some of us, endless medical appointments and education issues), and some of you may be happy with that. But don’t turn it into a they’re so precious.

My children seem to be benefiting from me being around now far more, and they’re young teens.

I do know, though, that I’ve fed into the future generation that mum is just there for everything,and her sole purpose is to make everyone else’s life work.

So, SO relieved to see you have got practical progress. Good luck OP, you have a wonderful life ahead of you.

I think I deliberately didn't marry another Dr because it just throws all this sexual politics into sharp relief.

When I did have serious relationships with fellow medics in the past they were all clever ambitious guys who felt very much entitled to high flying careers on their own terms and I could basically see that I was going to very likely get pushed out of the way despite being their equal.

With DH he has his own talents in areas that are not the same as mine and we are not trying to both achieve the same thing on the same timetable so it is more possible for us both to get what we want I think. My career is well rewarded and stable but not flexible and his can be poorly paid and insecure but flexible. He can take risks in his career because of my financial security and I benefit from his flexibility to help with childcare

Can't pretend I designed it exactly that way (Just met him in a club and fancied the arse off him) but him not being a medic was a deliberate decision.

I’m glad I read the thread and saw you are realizing that your DH can handle the same
Career hit you have taken. It’s really important that both parents make career sacrifices instead of letting everything fall to one.

OP thrilled for you. Every time you falter go back to this thread and see the chorus of people who supported you. I was one earlier on. I used to work in medical education on the non-clinical side and really the consultants had a much more relaxed and flexible time, so it's possible once you get there.

I also ended up as a SAHM for many years because we had an imbalance in earning power. It also meant we had an imbalance of relationship. It's a real problem and is pretty widespread. It only improved when I retrained for a different job. The man doesn't have to be an absolute shit to behave differently when he has the 'important' job. Even if you became a GP you might find that you're expected to do all the compromising: working part time, swapping last minute shifts, missing out on extra training etc.

If you can grit your teeth and get through the next few years it will be so much easier. And you'll have taught your husband that you expect and deserve an equal relationship. It's really not that much of a sacrifice for him to spend a bit of time working part time. I had to go and see a consultant recently and she explained how her husband (a consultant surgeon) was looking after the children at home while she worked in PP. I thought that was brilliant.

If it's any consolation I can't actually remember anything before the age of about four and I have only a few scattered hazy, possibly fake memories of anything before the age of 7. The good memories I have are not necessarily the "making memories" domestic SAHM bliss kind you'd expect your child to remember either, they are much more random than that.

Nothing further to add except
GO GO GO, OP!!
All the sympathy and best of luck whatever you do, especially with those exams.
Even if you aren't with them 24/7 now, your children will still come to visit you when you are doting in the lovely garden of your posh care home at the age of about 102 and the care workers will say to the new staff, "She was a consultant surgeon you know".

If my husband was a doctor, I'd have a little part time job in a shop or something, and pick my child up from school every day!

Christ, @MadeFrom100percentPears that's got to be the most profoundly depressing thing I've read on here for a while. "A little part time job in a shop", so you can support your Very Important Husband? Good grief, get yourself back to 1952.

OP, I am do heartened to see so many people advising you to stay at work. This is the toughest time, building your career when the kids are so young. I had my first when I was in law school (in the US) and it was brutal. But I'm so glad I stuck it out. Already my kids (three of them) are growing up and becoming more independent. I can't imagine what I'd do to occupy myself if I'd thrown in the towel.

Get terrific (yes, expensive) care - even if you think it'll break you. It will be worth it!

Also, may I recommend a book I read when I was struggling with the same questions. It's an American author but the advice translates well:

www.amazon.com/Feminine-Mistake-Are-Giving-Much/dp/1401309380/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=the+feminine+mistake+are+we+giving+up+too+much+by+leslie+bennetts&sprefix=the+feminine+mista&tag=mumsnetforu03-21&qid=1599613933&sr=8-1

I'm so glad to see that you've decided to stay on!!

Not particularly helpful, but a close relative and her DH are both consultants. They have three children, born fairly close together. They have been completely dedicated to their careers. The children are very close to their parents, polite and well balanced. They are proud of their parents. Please keep going. It's so worth it in the end. My only suggestion would be to get larger accommodation. A small flat sounds horrific. More space will make for a more pleasant job for a nanny.

Even as teens mine appreciate me being around

It is possible to have a career and still be around. Us working mothers are allowed to visit our homes occasionally.

If my husband was a doctor, I'd have a little part time job in a shop or something

OP is a doctor too. Her DH should maybe have the little part time job for pin money?

I gave up a serious career when my marriage broke down, so I could fulfil my role as parent properly (we 50:50 4 days on 4 days off).

Didn't give up working, just my ambitions and career trajectory. Did something that was interesting and fitted in with my main job of being a parent.

Zero regrets

As far as the deathbed thing is concerned, I think it’s pretty normal for people to regret the road not taken, whatever that was.

I spent a lot of time with my grandmother in the last weeks of her life. She returned again and again to memories of her service during the war, how well she’d done in her exams and the fact that her superior officer had told her she’d be a “damned fool” to waste her excellent brain by quitting work to marry and have babies. My grandmother would always laugh sadly and say “she was probably right”.

When she died, her son hadn’t visited her in two years because he was too focused on his own career and hobbies, whilst her relationship with her other child (my mother) was difficult. Faults on both sides, definitely. But it always broke my heart that my mother would belittle my grandmother’s intelligence behind her back, making out that she was a “bimbo” who couldn’t keep up with my brilliant grandfather who wrote books.

Despite the fact that my grandmother was the parent who was there for the kids while my grandfather worked away for a month at a time, my mother admits that she only remembers the 1 per cent of the time that her dad was there when she was sick, because he was more “special”.

For balance, I should say that I willingly took a massive step down in my professional life when DD was born. That was the right choice for me because I was in career burn-out, had realised that I was never going to make it to the top of my profession and needed time to re-think my options. So I’m not saying there’s only one right answer.

But yes, it’s definitely possible to end your life with bitter regrets over wasted potential.

Good to see you have decided to stay on OP. Some great advice here from fellow medics, noticeable that the people who know most about it are supporting you to carry on your career...

You’ll end up feeling resentful at your husband unless he goes part time too. However, If he doesn’t go part time And you leave the profession then you will have to live with your decision and can you do that? I know I couldn’t. I’m currently completing my return to practice as an AHP as I couldn’t bear to think of the waste of my education and I suspect that once your kids are older you’ll start to feel the same plus you’ll resent your husband. I suggest both going part time, going OOP for a year or moving speciality (I’d suggest ophthalmology as a good one as they seem to be crying out) I work in PGME right now so know about it.

If my husband was a doctor, I'd have a little part time job in a shop or something

Can you imagine a man EVER being given this piece of advice. Maybe it should be the other way around and as his wife is also a Doctor HE can be the one to “have a little part time job in a shop or something”. I am not sure whether I am more sad or more angry that people still think like this.