AIBU to give up a life's work to see my kids grow up

[doctormumoftwo]

I am thinking of leaving my job and I desperately need advice from other people who may have been in my position. I have two children who are 2 and 6. I work as a junior doctor/surgeon and am halfway through my training/exams. My DH is a full time a doctor. I love my job but it is very stressful. We could get by on DH salary alone but it would mean a big change in lifestyle (no holidays etc). I acknowledge I am very lucky to be in this position. I have been part time since I started but I am falling behind on my surgery and I have realised I can't continue part time as I need more surgical experience to gain competency. I also have final exams to take which means many hours of revision. I will be working flat out for the next 5 years minimum (nights, weekends, exams etc). Due to COVID our parents can not longer help regularly. It will be less stressful (but still demanding) as a consultant. DH cannot go part time to help. Despite the long hours we work, we can't afford private school, we live in a small flat with no garden. We will have to put the kids in school/nursery from 0745 - 6pm 5 days a week, or have a nanny for >50hrs for us to both work. My child's school is not great, there is not much community outside the school. My heart breaks for them, especially the 2 year old. I feel like I am sacrificing their childhood for my career. I have worked so hard to get where I am, invested money, time and incredible effort, but it feels like the demands of my job are just not compatible with being a decent mother. I don't know what to do. Our part time nanny recently quit handed in her notice. My child's reading is falling behind and they always ask me to play but I don't have the time to give them. I am thinking of giving up work and being a mum. I feel so guilty to continue leaving them for so many hours. I don't think a part time solution is going to work any longer because of the surgery, as I am falling behind and I spend many of my unpaid days off at work 'catching up'. I enjoy my job but I am incredibly stressed and sad about the toll it is taking on us all- that I know will not end for many more years. What should I do?

OP - I gave up a professional career to be a stay home mum . I fully appreciated the risks I was taking and I don’t regret it one bit . I thought I’d go back to work in a non professional role once they are both in secondary - now not so sure I will . Tweens need just as much attention as toddlers - just different

My dh would absolutely be going part time. I would probably say I’ve thought about it and I took a career hit twice to be pregnant and have babies so it’s your turn now, you should give notice and I’ll go full time. From there he could negotiate going part time instead AS LONG as he carries his share of the organisation load of childcare and home. Otherwise his job goes so he can adequately support his family. Yes he will be judged but so will you for your breaks already taken and he can still have his career. It’s just you get one too. (Not medicine but we are both full time, dc 2 & 5. I do have a surgeon friend whose wife is an anaesthetist, they had 4 children while studying and qualifying so it was hard yards)

OP I feel for you - medicine is such a difficult one to balance esp with a working husband/father too. My best friend is a junior doctor married to a lawyer and she always says (slightly bitterly) that the advice she’d give any young woman wanting to be a surgeon is not to marry an ambitious man.

The thing that jumps out to me is that your childcare looks really patchy. I know nannies are crazily expensive etc but can you afford getting in rock solid childcare for 6 months and THEN see how you feel? It seems emotionally impossible for you to make a sensible decision when you don’t have the stability and continuity of care right now.

I would not give up. I want something for me when kids older and in case marriage not forever.

Who knows what the future holds.

Good luck. GP is a much more flexible option if you're willing to compromise

Haven’t read through the thread yet but will do. If you can take 3 months’ break, if you can financially afford it, perhaps it’s best to do that? Give yourself some breathing space and time to think.

I am a junior doctor and think there are definitely other options!

I’m astounded that you think it acceptable for your husband to not drop down to LTFT but it ok for you to give it up totally! Where I am just as many men work PT as women - because they like having a life too! Once he has achieved end of training can he not seek a job doing 8 PA’s?

You could take a staff grade surgical job so you can get lots of experience outside the constraints of training, do exams at your leisure then re-apply for your number in a few years?

You don’t have to do GP, you could apply for radiology? But realistically GP training can very easily be done 60% and only half of it is hospital work, it’s much more family friendly in terms of training. Radiology you won’t be on call alone for a few years- I have a friend who was a surgical Reg who has just switched and loves it.

If you are done with the job and hate it, then quit. But if you still enjoy it then there are plenty of ways you can carve out a career and still be a very good mum.

Honestly, you need to change where you are working if people are being funny about men working less than full time.

Recently all the male consultants with children have had time off for childcare reasons during COVID- more so than the female consultants! It’s not been seen as wife work at all! You clearly need to come up north where you can have a big house and a taste of some 21st century attitudes!

I am a recently retired NHS consultant (not a surgeon though). I would say absolutely do not give up your career and DO NOT give up your NHS pension in particular. You and your husband need to work together to make it work.

To those saying the OP can just take a few years out and then go back to her career, it really really doesn't work like that in medicine and especially not in surgery. If you are an established consultant and you take some time out (sabbatical, academic pursuits, retirement etc) then it is often possible to come back later, but not at the very early stage of her career the OP is at. She would get work, sure (if she remained current and up to date with CPD and validation etc) but not the training posts she would want and need to continue to develop her career.

It sounds like there's more to this than just work, clearly your housing situation and school isn't making you happy either so could you make changes there which would help?
Personally, I would not give up all the training, time and no doubt money that you have put into your career to quit at this stage, especially when the situation will improve in the long term. But, I'm also somewhat of the opinion of why have children and then pay someone else to have them most of the time. Assuming you knew what was involved in the training when you embarked on it and that you chose to have kids and combine the two then I think you're being a bit unreasonable.
I also think you're being very unreasonable in saying that your partner can't go part time as you have comparable careers and I would assume salaries, and i think you're being quite unreasonable in making out that it would be hard to live on one Dr's salary - have you seen what the average wage in this country is?!?

Hi OP, haven't read the full thread, just your posts, so sorry if this has been said already.

Your choices are definitely not binary between continuing in your current specialty and stopping working altogether. You mentioned not wanting to do GP, which is fair enough, but there is a wealth of other options out there that don't have the unique and messy demands of surgery and which are totally doable as less than full time training.

For example, dermatology, radiology, opthalmology, histopathology, psych, etc all have much less antisocial working patterns. Some of these will also still give you options to use your surgical skills in another setting. You could also consider doing an out of program (maybe research, management or education fellowship) to give yourself a little breathing room.

Additionally, maybe surgery is right for you and the problem might just be your particular training post - some places are more family friendly than others. Have you spoken to your educational supervisor about the issues you're facing?

It also doesn't sound like you have a great quality of life where you are, is moving an option? Or transferring to another deanery?

Giving up work altogether is definitely also an option - I do know some female doctors who have successfully returned to medicine after a long career break - but it's definitely not your only choice here. You have a lot of avenues open to you.

I'd say have a think, maybe talk to other medic mums and weigh up all your options from there.

Good luck, OP.

@doctormumoftwo

I am not a Doctor, but I am a mum, and I would say that you only come this way once. If your heart is telling you something I think you need to listen to it. Being a mum is an honor and a blessing, and you only borrow them for a short while. Soon you'll be left with a lot of time on your hands to pursue whatever you want to do. Fast forward 15 years.........what do you want to remember of this precious window of time you've been given?

If you think there's a chance you will look back with regret & remember long working hours, no time with your little ones, head and mind at work and stressed by it all then I would say it's not a good trade-off to progress the career route over your children.

A friend took on a research job in a pharmaceutical company, another for a research based charity. Could you find another job that uses your skills but isn't so intense?

My advice is to ask yourself, given neither choice is what I want, which choice will I find it easier to live with?

OP this is an incredibly difficult decision to make. I gave up my career (not a surgeon but well paid upper management in a well known financial organisation). I don't regret is as such, but it has left me in a situation now that I would much rather not be in. I think, given the time again, I would make a different decision.

I wouldn't quit, I'd find a good nanny and maybe at least switch to a different speciality (GP?) if that meant I didn't quit. I'd get some advice from women in the same field as you. Get a cleaner and anything else that makes your life easier to enable you to go back.

I'm a SAHM and it is lovely, but I worry about the future, my career is falling behind and I'm not financially independent. I was working p/t and was made redundant due to Covid. I love spending time with my children, but there is that other side to it. I'm making sure that I'm always thinking about the future and I'm aiming not to take too long out. I think my marriage is solid, but you never, ever know. No one ever does, otherwise why would we do it in the first place?!

You've worked so hard, for so long. I'd think carefully before giving it up. Could you take the 3 month break to recalibrate and give you time to find a good nanny?

I am genuinely astounded at the number of posters who seem to be ignoring the fact that OP does not want to walk away from her job because she loves doing it.

This isn't some random shit grunt job that she hates doing that's causing child care problems. It's a job that she loves and that she has invested years of hard work into. I'm really taken aback by the number of people who are recommending she walks away from it, instead of asking her H to work part-time as well to parent his own kids, so that she can continue her career.

I work in medicine and there are some who are also married to medics

Some have relationships where they both work part time

Some both work full time but have a lot of support, but are very stressed

Some have primary care type roles for this reason, my in laws did this, one a GP the other part time family planning doctor which worked ok

Are you both surgeons? What about your on- calls - what do they look like and what will they look like when you're out of where you are now? My brother is an anaesthetist, when he became a consultant about 12 years ago his on call work happened at home which may be more suited, how long til you quality to this level?

If you think you need a nanny (possibly plural) to cover all hours then somethjng has to give somewhere - no nanny would be keen to cover anything to suit your working patterns I'm sure as it's crazy (if it's anything like our hospital?!)

As for city life - just get out - that sounds awfully small dwellings - there are jobs out there if you/your husband are willing to compromise- it does sound like perhaps your DH needs some compromise though

Hi OP,

Recently qualified GP here.

First I have to say I am immensely impressed that you have got this far in your training with two small children and a partner also in medicine. For those who don't work in the field it's hard to appreciate the personal study time required, I imagine that in spite of working LTFT at the moment if you factor that in you're probably already working far and above most peoples full time hours.

It's such a heart breaking situation for you, every surgeon I've met before has had to have so much passion and energy to get through their training, it's very much a calling. But getting help with your children- be that husband reducing hours, nanny or any other option- would help with your workload but wouldn't give you more time with them yourself, which I imagine is what you want.

I know it isn't your calling but I would encourage you to consider switching speciality. GP training for example is three years but only half of that is hospital postings and you may be able to reduce that further given your experience. Some of the "hospital posts" are very relaxed eg I did 6 months of psychiatry. Try to get the hospital jobs out of the way as quickly as possible with as high a proportion of hours as you can tolerate then drop your hours for the GP postings.

Being a good GP is (contrary to popular opinion) actually very difficult but the beauty of the job is its flexibility and the options to develop a special interest. I have worked with some excellent ex surgical trainees who now use their skills for things like minor surgery in their practice.

I wish you well whatever path you choose to take. Please do DM me if you want to talk more.

In the short term would seek a new nanny.

Your H is a problem IMO as he is prioritising his career over yours. With a DH like that I wouldn’t want to be a SAHM, so wouldn’t quit my job without something else decent to go to, if not medicine then a role doing something else using your skills and qualifications, for reasonable pay.

Can you still be a doctor but just give up the surgical speciality for now? Sorry i dont know much about the different levels are you still a junior doctor or a registrar? I think its really hard in any career to progress if you are part time, there is not enough hours to do so that dont wind up spilling over into non working hours. I think you need to think carefully if its the right decision for you personally as there is potential for a whole load of resentment issues if you are the one to make ALL the career sacrifices whilst your husband carries on doing what he wants to do. Have you got access to any specialist mentor support or coaching expert that may help you in decision making

What about your patients; is it fair to them to have such a distracted and conflicted surgeon?

That said I believe your concern for the kids is misplaced. Two hard working parents is good modeling and the children don't need to be coddled center of the universe to thrive. Also please don't quit and then complain that the workplace discriminates against mums and all that. The workplace discriminates against those who voluntarily opt not to work.

In the long run I think quitting and becoming dependent would cause many regrets; what if something happens to your spouse or marriage for example?

Hello OP.

I have just read your thread and it takes me back to the time I was a widowed single parent in my 30s. I was studying so that I could get a profession with a decent salary to support my children who were similar ages to yours. When I finished my first degree and secured a job I had to study a Masters degree as well as work full time to achieve professional status in my career. This was a condition of my employment. It was hard and I felt like you many, many times. I had no support and childminding was always fraught and I felt guilty and anxious all of the time towards my children, I was always tired and often wondered whether it was all worth it. But looking back I think it was.

Recently my now grown up daughter told me that I was a role model, that she was proud of what I had achieved. Not just the academic achievements but also the fact that I had shown her that as a woman it was important to be independent and able to support myself and my children. That I was not reliant upon a man to support us. No one knows what the future holds. Please do not give up. I did this alone but you have a husband who is equally responsible for the upbringing of your children. Why not talk it through with him to see how you can both find solutions to childcare and child rearing. Giving up on your career would be such a shame. Your children need good role models too.

Good luck.

@anielaoliviabeau what’s your area of law. If you prefer DM me.

Honestly? I’d probably look to hiring the help I needed and going full time to get my training done in a shorter period. Which I know seems counter productive but it opens your options up a lot quicker without you compromising your career.

I’m not a doctor but another HCP and like a PP considered doing my medical training but knocked the idea on the head once I fully appreciated the hours you guys put in. Don’t give it up though, your children won’t be little forever and if you’re at home taking all the strain there that lets your husband take the time and space to fly high in his career. And I don’t know about you but that would breed resentment for me big time.

Not saying that that's the only reason people work

@Devlesko yes you are. You have made your attitude towards working mothers perfectly clear in the past.

@Tappering

I am genuinely astounded at the number of posters who seem to be ignoring the fact that OP does not want to walk away from her job because she loves doing it.

This isn't some random shit grunt job that she hates doing that's causing child care problems. It's a job that she loves and that she has invested years of hard work into. I'm really taken aback by the number of people who are recommending she walks away from it, instead of asking her H to work part-time as well to parent his own kids, so that she can continue her career.

Well said.