AIBU to give up a life's work to see my kids grow up

[doctormumoftwo]

I am thinking of leaving my job and I desperately need advice from other people who may have been in my position. I have two children who are 2 and 6. I work as a junior doctor/surgeon and am halfway through my training/exams. My DH is a full time a doctor. I love my job but it is very stressful. We could get by on DH salary alone but it would mean a big change in lifestyle (no holidays etc). I acknowledge I am very lucky to be in this position. I have been part time since I started but I am falling behind on my surgery and I have realised I can't continue part time as I need more surgical experience to gain competency. I also have final exams to take which means many hours of revision. I will be working flat out for the next 5 years minimum (nights, weekends, exams etc). Due to COVID our parents can not longer help regularly. It will be less stressful (but still demanding) as a consultant. DH cannot go part time to help. Despite the long hours we work, we can't afford private school, we live in a small flat with no garden. We will have to put the kids in school/nursery from 0745 - 6pm 5 days a week, or have a nanny for >50hrs for us to both work. My child's school is not great, there is not much community outside the school. My heart breaks for them, especially the 2 year old. I feel like I am sacrificing their childhood for my career. I have worked so hard to get where I am, invested money, time and incredible effort, but it feels like the demands of my job are just not compatible with being a decent mother. I don't know what to do. Our part time nanny recently quit handed in her notice. My child's reading is falling behind and they always ask me to play but I don't have the time to give them. I am thinking of giving up work and being a mum. I feel so guilty to continue leaving them for so many hours. I don't think a part time solution is going to work any longer because of the surgery, as I am falling behind and I spend many of my unpaid days off at work 'catching up'. I enjoy my job but I am incredibly stressed and sad about the toll it is taking on us all- that I know will not end for many more years. What should I do?

Personally I don't think you can recover a child's early years or the time with them. Their childhood happens once, and if you feel too pressured and tired to actually enjoy any time with them, and you can afford stop, then stop.

Going even further still I would move out of the city and into the country, where the quality of life for younger children is much higher, you may get a job as doctor with better hours or a different arrangement there.

You are likely to have many regrets if you continue as you are.

“They’re only little once and it’s over so fast”. Yes that is true. But why base ALL your choices for the rest of your life for what is just a few years? Our kids will grow up and leave us. It is what they are supposed to do. Making tremendously sacrifices and throwing away a career is daft considering they will / must go. My mum didn’t work for 15 years and massively underplayed her potential all her life. We left home (as we should) and she’s stuck behind with an inadequate pension, no money, bored to tears and a sense of burning frustration that will never go. It must be very hard - but quitting now would be a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

@Teateaandmoretea I’ve known her several years, she as much as it’s hard for some to believe wants to be a stay at home mum, I was sceptical at first but she is genuinely happy.

My point was she chose the expected path. I have no idea what she wanted I don’t know her.

Haven't rtft but how about quitting and be self employed doing filler and Botox? You could choose to do a few hours a week at a Samson somewhere and imagine you'd make enough for a holiday etc

the...WHAT?

Move into a different specialty? GP?

It is a really, really hard decision op. If I were you, I would try to find the half way house before giving it all up.

Switch your specialism to one which is better suited to part time working, move house to somewhere which has excellent links to London and find a really good nanny who can send you pics of dc going about their day while you work.

If after all that you still want to leave, then go for it.

I have 3dc but my middle child is disabled and I managed to work part time until he was 10 when it all went tits up and the decision was made for me. I now work for myself and have the chance to cook dinners, clean the house (theoretically although I don't really ) and read with the kids etc.

I love it but I left behind years of study and experience and the money of course! I have the occasional wobble but because I worked as long as I could, I have no regrets.

Not a surgeon but a scrub nurse, there’s a reason so few women are in surgery, most of the female consultants I know have partners who are stay at home parents or part time. Is becoming a staff grade an option? And I can see why you wouldn’t want gp, any other specialties that might be feasible for you? Anaesthetics , or radiology and go interventional. Perhaps a PhD or research fellowship for a year or so then back to clinical when your children are a bit older.

I have a very close friend who made it to consultant surgeon level with two young kids.

In her case money was no object, and they have always had a nanny 60 hours a week and have other staff, and a backup nanny.

I admire her very much and she’s truly amazing, but I would not personally have made the sacrifices she did.

She (and her DH) have worked 80 hour weeks since leaving uni. She spent her short maternity leaves doing exam preparation full-time, with the nanny there. She has regularly gone for days without seeing the kids/babies or her DH, despite them all sleeping in the same house.

People who are saying you should keep at it, maybe are not quite understanding the hours that need to be put in and the inflexibility regarding hours and location.

And if your DH is close to consultant I can see why as a family you’d want to prioritise him getting there sooner purely for the money step-up.

It is such a shame you can’t use your amazing skills and knowledge, but just fewer hours a week, it’s so frustrating that it seems to be all or nothing.

As an outsider it does seem surgery is left in the dark ages regarding work-life balance. Even in law or finance there is always the option to do your minimum hours and take an easier route without having to completely give up.

My friend would probably now say it was worth it. I’m not sure what to suggest.

My mum gave up medicine when I was born in the 1970s. She never went back to it. Instead she was a full time mum while my dad went on to become a pioneering and extremely successful surgeon. That was fine while it was fine: she loved being a mum, and we were very comfortable financially. BUT it didn't end up okay: when they were in their early 50s, just as all of us kids were slowly leaving the nest and becoming independent, my dad decided to leave my mum for a glamorous (much) younger woman at work (a story as old as time...). They then proceeded to wipe the floor with my mum financially during the divorce. Now she's in her 70s with no pension, no career, and a lasting sadness. Meanwhile my dad retired from surgical practice as a full clinical professor with many honours, a whopping pension, a fat bank account, and ludicrously well paid part time 'consulting' and speaking gigs. He even financed a second family with the glamorous young wife.
OP, please don't be my mum. She would never have foreseen this happening when she was your age, but here we all are. Please work with your DH to make it work. Your career is not a nice little 'also have' - it's your identity and your future.

It sounds like something has got to give but you don't sound like you want to give up - if you had other options, you'd keep at it.

"It did really stick out to me, OP, that your dh can't go part-time because if he did it would have a negative effect on his career, but it's seemingly entirely OK for you to give yours up entirely (the ultimate 'negative effect', perhaps)"

Yes, yes to this. I didn't sacrifice an amazing career for my DH but decisions were made that suited him better at the time because I was the one working part-time with a bigger role in the dc's day to day lives. Now I have older teens there is some resentment on my part. Your dc will leave home when you still have a decade or two of working life. How do you see yourself filling those years and will you feel resentful if your DH is a success in his medical career and you don't have one?

It's really hard and really shit to be in the position you are in but you deserve a career as much as your DH and it would seem the best way out of your current predicament is to have your DH go part time and cut you some slack.

This will be hard for you as you are getting so many different replies. But I recently became a SAHM after having my third child. It was a really, really hard decision. Although I knew I very much wanted to be with my children and not have to cobble together the different bits of childcare to make sure they were looked after, and to deal with the constant juggling and mental load that created, I also felt really strongly that if I stopped work I’d be letting down everything I’d achieved, my education, being a woman in the workplace and all that kind of thing. But I just kept circling back to wanting to be with my children and not missing out on their early years, and also the later ones when I’m told they do still need you a great deal in different ways. And I say that as someone who was already working part part time in a far less stressful role than yourself. Really I knew in my heart what I wanted to do and the barriers I had to overcome were the worries I had about letting myself down and what people might think of me. But I got there in the end. Your situation is obviously slightly different, in that you are feeling that having small children and a demanding career of your choice seems impossible. But I don’t think he would be seriously considering stopping work as an option if you didn’t somehow feel comfortable with it already, you’d just be rigourously trying to find the right childcare to make your chosen career happen. The children probably will be fine either way, I know that a lot of my decision was about my feelings of wanting to be with them and my projections of how they might feel if I wasn’t there. Children are very flexible and they will be fine and super proud of you when you get where you want to be. But it’s about what you want really and what you will look back on and wish you had or hadn’t done.

Wow @TraderJoe!

I must say that giving up being financially indepedent is something I could never do!

@Oaktree55

100% quit. I say this from experience. You’ll regret it otherwise and you won’t get your children’s childhoods back. It seems deep down you’ve already made the decision you just feel guilty enacting it. Just do it. Be brave you won’t regret it.

You would never say this to a man. Ever. Blatant sexism right there.

I’d give up job and be mum for next few years.
You can always pick your career up later but you can’t get back the childhood.
I gave up career to be SAHM for 7 years. Back in same career now.

TraderJoe Gosh that is so tough

A paeds surgeon where I live told her female trainees that it would be tough with children, that she’d missed many of her DC’s school events and that none of it would be possible without her DH who had more flexibility in his working hours. She’s very respected and I don’t think was warning them off, just being realistic. Presumably it’s worse with a sub specialty like paeds where the on call will be more frequent and you’re probably going to have to come in more.

The demands of surgical training, 2 small DC and a DH who also works full time and long hours are untenable. Something will have to give, but I don’t think it needs to be your entire medical career.

You can’t take 5 years out of your surgical training and expect it to be there when you come back, but you know that.

The solutions are either your DH gains his consultancy then steps back for a bit to support you in your career, with a likely mix of nannies and family support. This is what many women do for their male partners, unthinkingly, all the time. Your male surgical trainee colleagues with children most likely aren’t thinking about giving it all up for their children.

Or you reconsider another specialty. Surgery for any person, irrespective of sex, is a time-consuming, vocational career. It’s fine to decide that you want to change specialty so you can see more of your young children. But don’t give it all up just because the entire burden has fallen on you.

What an absolute waste of an education, drive and ambition. I think you’d be mad to give it up and agree with everyone saying your husband needs to be more flexible.

I worked when my kids were little, 4 days a week until 8 years ago when I went back full time. Youngest was one. Older were three. I don’t regret that at all. I don’t regret time I didn’t spend with them, I didn’t miss out on anything, I made just as many memories as a SAHM did, although arguably I probably have fewer of the more tedious aspects of parenting.

I don’t especially like my job, and it’s nothing like as stressful as medicine. But for me it’s important that I have something that isn’t just me being a mum. I don’t think a man would ever ever be told to quit a job as he’ll miss the time with his children growing. Ever.

Let go of the guilt and get angry at your husband. I’m angry with him and I’ve got only two of your posts to go on!

@GreenGoldRed

I’m at the Bar (and in an area which requires a lot of travel).My DH is as well. I remember after my second wanting to quit. My career was not going well and home life was not much better. It all just felt like “what’s the point?” We had no money, because it all went on childcare. We had a huge mortgage for a small house

I remember speaking to a colleague who told me, “don’t give up, just keep your foot in the door”. I carried on part-time. I’m not going to lie, at times, it was not much fun, but it got better. I now earn more then my DH and am doing really well. My youngest is in school so our childcare costs are massively reduced. We actually have disposable income.

So my advice don’t quit. Consider if transfer to another area may be more compatible with your life.

I read this with interest @GreenGoldRed and am following this thread with a keen eye. I am also at the Bar, due any day with my first child, hating the work I'm doing in lockdown, wondering if there's any point going back.

I haven't dared have this conversation with colleagues because we're in lockdown and I haven't been able to have those quick chats in Court or in the robing room. I wonder if you have any other observations? My main difficulty is the fact I will be left with the crap work if I return part-time with no way of saving anything decent for mat leave no.2. I'm wondering about going in-house for a couple of years between the first and second child.

My advice to OP is to take three months off (to sort out childcare/press the reset button), then carry on in the New Year. I spent some time doing divorce work at the start of my career. I saw so many women quit their jobs and become home maker, only to feel so short changed 10-15 years down the line when their children no longer needed them and their relationship didn't work out. The jealousy they had towards their husband was awful; they felt they had given their family/him everything and in turn had nothing left for themselves, 10-15 years down the line. My motto has always been, the time is going to pass anyway so don't worry too much about that. You will be setting the best example to your children if you finish this. I have utmost sympathy for you though. You sound worn out and stressed. Legally, your husband can take 4 weeks unpaid leave each year. I wonder if he could spread the load a little by taking that 4 weeks, if you were to return in say January? Your career is as important as his. No ones should take priority. Also, from a tax POV, its far better to have 2 parents working 4 days a week than 1 parent working full-time. Just a thought.

Keep going. Short term pain for long term gain.

One thing to add OP ( sorry I bet you're all advised out by now). If you do choose to give up work then please get yourself financially protected from the get go. Do NOT depend on your husband's goodwill somewhere down the line. Talk to him now. You'll need a private pension paid into every month and some family savings/long term investments that can be split 50:50 in case of divorce. A car in your name. Health insurance. Stuff like that. Dont join the legion of women who give it all up for their families only to be stranded trying to bring up two kids and but their husbands out of the family home, or having to scrape together a pension age 55+, because the main wage earner has changed the rules. There are lots of them out there who thought it would never end up like that.

Perhaps, you could take a few months off and see how you feel. I don’t think you should give up your career. I’m saying this as someone who doesn’t have children and only works part time. This is because, I envy those that actually want to do a profession and have motivation. I don’t seem to be interested in anything. It seems that you enjoy the job but your quality of life isn’t good. I would relocate to somewhere cheaper and get a bigger house with a garden if you have the money. Get a new nanny as well. I would take time off to organise this.

Your children will get older and eventually leave one day. And once they are in full time education you might be bored or regretful. It seems that you’re the sort of person that wants a career so I wouldn’t give up. I know many friends who have mothers that were stay at home mums. Then when they’ve started uni, their mums have started to do part time work. But say for example, you’re no longer with your husband how can you afford this? And for someone that wants a career, this could be very unfulfilling working part time in a school or something like that.

I don’t know why people keep saying to give up work and be a mum. Are those that work not a mum?

So much terrible advice on here, basically telling you to abandon any achievement for yourself or any ambition you may have as a person. It's like a slew of recommendations from the 50's.
OP, you have worked very hard to excel and make something of yourself, in a field that desperately need women's inputs. This is yours, and will be for the rest of your life. Do not throw that away for the convenience of your husband and for maybe 5-10 years of being full times with your children. Your husband will not be defined only by being a father, do not do yourself the disservice of being only defined as a mother while you could be so much more. Get yourself the support you both need as parents to function, buck the trend and ask from your husband the same sacrifices you may have to make.

It will be impossible to go back to work as if a hiatus of 5-10 years was nothing. You will have lost so much.

It's such a personal decision but if it's worth anything, I would quit. I always remember someone telling me not to work too hard because at the end of the day when I am at the end of my years it is unlikely to be my former clients or work colleagues holding my hand on my death bed, it will be my family. My gravestone won't list my career achievements but the family I've left behind. So I work as much or as little as I need to get by and cherish that time instead. In my mind life's too short for career ambition (I appreciate this may not be the case for everyone, particularly where there's been a lot of hard work and sacrifice already). My DH has a medical condition with a very unclear prognosis which has really brought this to the fore in our minds recently. I will certainly grow old with unfulfilled potential, but I'm pretty happy just muddling along, having adventures along the way.

Childhood is so short. I wish I was at home more with mine. I will never get that time or those lost memories back. It's a 1 time thing. My teen barely wants to speak with me now (we do get on but hes very much a typical teen). But I can re-train again at any age and now with older kids is a good time for that. Quitting my job when mine was 2 or 3 years old was the best thing I ever did. I didn't even know what my kid had in his sandwich I remember being in tescos and calling the old nanny to see what he ate. So bad.

“He is nearly finished so he can't go part time- although he's allowed, it would have a negative impact on his career prospects (there is still quite a lot of sexism about this in medicine).*

So your husband CAN go part time. He’s just choosing not to as it will have a negative impact on his career prospects. Yet he’s presumably happy for you to give up your career completely? You’ve done the part time already to enable him to progress his career when the children were small. It’s his turn to make sacrifices for the next few years.“

This this and this.

Why oh why husbands can never go p/t, put their career in hold, slow them down etc. The choice are always for the wife to do everything or give up everything. You clearly slowed down your career for the children and for the family it is his time now.

My ex dh did this to me, word for word, “i cannot work part time” “sexism in the work place” “building a career” etc. I chose to stay at home for a few years. Full of resentment. We are not together anymore. Resentment built.
Interestingly when it did suit him, when the decision was his he had no rpoblem going p/t or working from home etc.
Most places at work are sexist but I know plenty of men who have juggled their career as a team.

Not telling you off OP of course, I am just angry that time and time again it is a problem inherently female. Piases me right off. What kind of hope there is for my DDs? We tell DDs to study and then they get to give it up for marriage?

Don’t give up op, but don’t make it all your responsibility.