AIBU to give up a life's work to see my kids grow up

[doctormumoftwo]

I am thinking of leaving my job and I desperately need advice from other people who may have been in my position. I have two children who are 2 and 6. I work as a junior doctor/surgeon and am halfway through my training/exams. My DH is a full time a doctor. I love my job but it is very stressful. We could get by on DH salary alone but it would mean a big change in lifestyle (no holidays etc). I acknowledge I am very lucky to be in this position. I have been part time since I started but I am falling behind on my surgery and I have realised I can't continue part time as I need more surgical experience to gain competency. I also have final exams to take which means many hours of revision. I will be working flat out for the next 5 years minimum (nights, weekends, exams etc). Due to COVID our parents can not longer help regularly. It will be less stressful (but still demanding) as a consultant. DH cannot go part time to help. Despite the long hours we work, we can't afford private school, we live in a small flat with no garden. We will have to put the kids in school/nursery from 0745 - 6pm 5 days a week, or have a nanny for >50hrs for us to both work. My child's school is not great, there is not much community outside the school. My heart breaks for them, especially the 2 year old. I feel like I am sacrificing their childhood for my career. I have worked so hard to get where I am, invested money, time and incredible effort, but it feels like the demands of my job are just not compatible with being a decent mother. I don't know what to do. Our part time nanny recently quit handed in her notice. My child's reading is falling behind and they always ask me to play but I don't have the time to give them. I am thinking of giving up work and being a mum. I feel so guilty to continue leaving them for so many hours. I don't think a part time solution is going to work any longer because of the surgery, as I am falling behind and I spend many of my unpaid days off at work 'catching up'. I enjoy my job but I am incredibly stressed and sad about the toll it is taking on us all- that I know will not end for many more years. What should I do?

Try googling 'alternative careers for doctors'. If you did give up your surgical training (and I can see why you would want to and think I would do that in your position) it doesn't mean you'd have to give up a career in medicine. You might be able to get a part time job in medical research, or with a pharmaceutical or insurance company, say, and then later development that into a well-paying careerr path. Have you read Amanda Brown's book Prison Doctor? She is an inspiration - someone who gave up a career in medicine that she loved and accidentally entering a career path she loved even more. There are other opportunities out there for you while your children are little. I feel for you and wish you all the best in making your decision.

Hey OP. Feel free to DM me. I’m a hospital consultant of 10 years, and I’m having the same thought, and have been having it since dc were born....now 9&7. I got my CCT before having kids.......there is no way on this earth I could have passed those exams with DC. I’ve worked PT since the DC were born and more recently have started locuming as my sole job. I feel completely deskilled and constantly on the back foot. The only way I can catch up again is by going full time and never seeing my children. My DH isn’t a dr, and also earns enough that I don’t have to work.....but it feels such a waste to throw years of training and studying away. The thing is, once youve reached the holy grail of consultancy it doesn’t actually seem to get any better. I spend hours and hours and hours doing admin that I’m not paid to do. Then there is teaching, and when I was in a substantive post it almost felt like a competition to see who could take on the most extra activities. I’ve also looked at GP, and just die at the thought of another 3 years training (they won’t reduce it, I’ve asked,....so a year of ward work after 10 as a consultant, then 2 years on GP practice if I did FT, and more exams). Are you on Physician mums group PMGUK on Facebook? They are a helpful bunch. I can nominate you if you DM me. I don’t have the answers, but I do know that if I hadn’t had DC before CCTing I wouldn’t have CCT’d. You could leave your surgical post and locum in A&E, most EDs are desperate for locums and it gives you flexibility, thinking time and some money. But you’d need to be sure you don’t want to do surgical training. Sending huge hugs from the same dark hole xx

From an outside perspective it really seems that it is you making all the sacrifices and your husband making none.

If you quit you lose your career altogether. If he goes part-time he will maybe slow his career down - which is what you have been doing all the time you've been part time.

You need to think as two equal parents with equal responsibilities for your children's well-being.

He doesn't get to offload all the parenting responsibilities on to you.

And as for medicine is sexist and wouldn't like him doing part time, well a huge reason for these attitudes is because men don't go part time - there are no role models and few men doing it.

Firstly I wanted to say that you must be superwoman already to be managing as you do. The medical world is very elitist and sexist and I can’t imagine how many hours of slog you will have put in to get where you are now.
My kids are grown up. I worked full time on shifts when they were growing up in a very sexist man world of a profession. It was extremely difficult missing the school functions, missing birthdays and Christmas days at home when they were little. Compounded by my husband working the same job. I really feel for you and totally understand how you feel pulled in every direction.
I would be reluctant to completely give up and you will then be totally reliant on your husband. This doesn’t sit that well with me. Is there any way you could employ a nanny or childcare nurse to help you through qualifying. You could then reconsider without having thrown all your hard work away.
Now my daughter is grown up she says she is glad that she was able to see through me that women have a very valid place in professional environments and it’s shown her that with hard work she can be successful, so I take comfort that I have contributed something important.
That said I have every respect for the women who choose to give up their work and be full time mums. That’s such an important job too and much harder work than regular employment. Good luck with your choice. Just don’t make any rash decisions that leave you financially vulnerable 💐💐💐💐💐

And of course your husband can go LTFT. Tell him to man up, FFS.

Why are you making all the compromises? Where is your DH in this process? Why is his career more important than his role as a parent?

You are not the supporting actor to his starring role.
Ask your DH how he is going to help make it work.

I guessed you would be a junior doctor from the thread title. I think you need to talk to female consultant surgeons with kids and see what they say; and talk to your educational supervisor about your perception that you're falling behind with surgical skills.

Above all, I would say don't make the decision quickly. Whatever you decide, sit with it for at least six months.

I gave up my very successful, very well paid career. Absolutely no regrets. I also loved my job. I think where I’m unusual is I felt absolutely no guilt or sense of failure in doing so. There’s way too much pressure to be everything to everyone. I’ve been able to 100% focus on my kids and to not be exhausted, stressed etc etc. Women take on too much. I’m very much a feminist but choosing to be a SAHM is an equally valid and important role in my opinion. Better than trying to juggle all the balls.

When the kids leave home I will probably pick up a career again.

The world is littered with broken women who sacrificed their careers to be the homemaker only to see their marriage fail later in life. Think long and hard before you give up everything you've worked for and the independence it assures you if needed. Even if your marriage stays the course, your children will need you less and less until they eventually leave home altogether to build their own independent lives. What prospects will you have then? There are other options aside from giving up everything you've work so hard for to date.

Do NOT sacrifice your career for your husbands. He can go part time so you can qualify. So what if his career is slightly behind where it could be, better than you having no career. A similar scenario happened to a friend who gave up her career so her husband could concentrate on his. Now her husband is a consultant earning mega money. Out of the blue he left her. She now works in an office just about scraping by money wise. Angry and regretful that she gave her career up for him.

Also it’s not a choice between having a ‘big’ job and being a mum. That’s pretty insulting. Plenty of us do both and I’m not sure any men have to make this decision.

As others have said, get staffed up. Use your full time salary to make raising children as felicitous as possible. Pay for nanny, a driver, a cleaner - whatever saves you time that you can then spend with the children.

Also, consider getting the children on a late or alternative schedule. For years I worked from 7am - 4pm. The children didn't get up until 8am and then stayed up until 9 or 10pm at night. That meant I was able to spend 5 or 6 hours a day with them in the evenings! I fit in my own personal stuff on weekends. British people are hung up on early bedtimes but early didn't work for us.

One more thing: up until they turned 4, they continued to have a long 2 hour nap every day while I was at work so I could spend time with them when I got home.

Take the time for some blue sky thinking and to work out a system that works for you. It may be very different from what other people are doing.

And to all the posters saying about her husband going PT......totally depends what speciality he is in. In any speciality he is entitled to request PT working. In some specialities (neurosurgery, cardiothoracics, orthopaedics are just 3 that spring to mind) he would destroy his chances of getting a consultant post; they also specialities that aren’t exactly conducive to working PT. I get that in n ideal world both parents taking a hit on their careers is better, but there are some jobs where it simply would be career suicide to work PT (for men or women) and telling the OP to tell her husband to consider his options just isn’t helpful.

I’m a GPST2 and have been part time (60%) since I got back from maternity leave in March. I’m finding it a great balance and the scheme are really flexible with working days etc. I’ve completed the busy acute jobs and I’ll be starting my final year in January. The exams have changed since covid and there is just the AKT to do which is about 3- 4 months of revision. The CSA has changed to be video recorded hours while at work... no one knows if that will continue but they’ve said it will do for the foreseeable future. I’ve started to revise for the AKT and I think it’s do-able at weekends and evenings after my LB has gone to bed although I’m getting quite a bit of guilt with that.

Although part-time GP training would be at least another 4-5 years, I think the balance is good and as you’ve already completed a few years of surgical training you might be able to do an even shorter training programme. I know a couple of people (one an anaesthetics trainee) who did a shorter GP training period (2.5 years) as they’d already put the hours in.

I think it’s amazing that you’re a female surgeon as they are so few and far between. It would be such a shame to give up medicine after so many years of hard work, and it doesn’t sound like you hate the job. If you don’t want to be a GP I wonder if you could consider an academic post or similar for a couple of years while the children are still so young? You could do some clinical work occasionally to keep your skills up also. Good luck with whatever you decide!

I work for an investment bank. 60 hour week is the norm for me. I know it doesn't compare to being a Doctor but I had exams to sit as well and when my DD was very small it was quite hard. DH worked for a solicitor and our childminder was unreliable, always swanning off on holiday and expecting us to drop everything to accommodate this. We have no family. We didn't really have any friends who could step in and help. We existed on after school clubs and a DD who hung around in shops after school waiting to be picked up. Yes I know it sounds awful and neglectful. Somehow we made it.

I realise we only had one DC to worry about and I was able to WFH (which I started after I took the rubbish out one day and my two year old DD said "Have a nice day at work, Mummy") but I am SO GLAD I persisted as DH had to give up his job due to ill health. If I had given up my job I would never have gotten another as well paid and with such a good pension. You never know what the future holds.

My DD wasn't traumatised by my long absences. She didn't grow up to be an unsociable problem child, she wasn't a failure at school, she didn't become a drug addict. She's now an 18 year old university student very strong and responsible. Loves her Mum and Dad. Real homebody. She is PROUD of what I do. Please don't believe newspaper stories of child deprivation due to full time working Mothers.

I gave up my career in the city to be with my children and I haven’t regretted it for a moment. My DH earns less than I did but we are still comfortable.

I know it’s not a popular view on here but they are only little for such a small amount of time that I didn’t want to miss it.

Your decision sounds very hard but the current situation seems very stressful.

But it's not just any old job you'd be quitting is it. To get this far it must be a passion so really if I were you I would do whatever it takes to stick with it. Your children will be fine, and what a great role model you would be for them. Your DH needs to get on board and help you come up with a sustainable option, rather than just take the easy way out and let you quit.

When I had DS my DH told me I didn't need to go back to work. Thankfully I did as we split when DS was 11 and if I hadn't had had a decent job we'd have been screwed as I had to support him alone. It was my choice to leave the marriage, but if I'd given up my job that wouldn't have been an option for me.

Please persist if you can, it would be such a shame to chuck away all that training. Your kids will grow old and become more independent, don't let them become your only world, the world is so much larger than that.

So your husband CAN go part time. He’s just choosing not to as it will have a negative impact on his career prospects. Yet he’s presumably happy for you to give up your career completely? You’ve done the part time already to enable him to progress his career when the children were small. It’s his turn to make sacrifices for the next few years.

You should reread this paragraph a few times. Sounds like your DH has decided his career is more important than yours. Giving up everything you have worked for to enable his career is setting one hell of a precedent for the rest of your married life.
Have good long look in the mirror - do you actually want to quit? Or do you feel that you are being forced to because the needs of everybody else in the family are higher priority that your own?

If you do want to quit, you should.
If you don't, it's time to have an honest conversation with your DH about what a marriage of 2 equals looks like in the real world.

*He is nearly finished so he can't go part time- although he's allowed, it would have a negative impact on his career prospects (there is still quite a lot of sexism about this in medicine).

So your husband CAN go part time. He’s just choosing not to as it will have a negative impact on his career prospects. Yet he’s presumably happy for you to give up your career completely?*

I agree with this.

I was in a similar situation a few years ago OP. Both in very demanding jobs. Small and difficult DC (one SN, both bad sleepers). No family help. Nanny resigned.

I left work. It was all too much and I just felt drained and couldn’t see the bigger picture. DH adamant that any request for lower hours on his part would be career suicide.

In the short term it was a big relief but a few years later I wish, wish, wish I had stayed in work somehow and insisted that my DH make some changes to his career to help more. Yes it would have impacted his career but 1) the sexism will continue until men start to make these requests and 2) so what if it did impact his career, that’s fair, he’s a parent too and it’s much fairer than me giving up mine completely.

We are now cemented in a 1950s set up where I am at home with the kids and he has the big career which can’t possibly be compromised. And because I’ve been out of work for a few years, my employment and earning potential is more limited, so that just cements the importance of his job even further.

Think about where you want to be in 5 years, 10 years. And think about how you will feel if your DH’s career forges ahead while you are at home doing laundry and picking up peas off the floor.

Why can't your DH be more flexible to help out and allow you to keep your career also?

You sound like such a considerate, loving parent. Your children are lucky to have you.

The fact that you are considering giving it up really tells me that surgery isn’t something you’re so passionate about that no other speciality would do. You could consider GP training, for example. Much easier to do part time, although still stressful. You could also consider other careers that use medical qualifications such as working in pharmaceuticals or even as a benefits assessor for the DWP (it pays well even though it sounds potentially soul destroying). Alternatively could you look at doing locum shifts for a year or two? I have a couple of friends who’ve been doing that for a while now.

@Thereisnogreengrass

So why does the op have to consider her options and her husband doesn’t? Please explain

I get that in n ideal world both parents taking a hit on their careers is better, but there are some jobs where it simply would be career suicide to work PT (for men or women) and telling the OP to tell her husband to consider his options just isn’t helpful

I would speak to some of your colleagues and try to speak to other more senior drs who have been in a similar position in the past. It's a very careers specific question.
I am married to a Consultant Cardiologist and we've been together since uni so I'm aware of the process and how hard it can be. I'm not a dr but an architect (so also lots of training and tough hours no shifts but lots of travel & stress) and we hit a similar decision point when I was pregnant with no.2 and I was being headhunted for a director role. I lost the baby (nothing to do with the stress, it just was) and that really made us stop and reassess everything in both our careers.
I am still an architect but I changed how I work, I'm lucky enough to be fully qualified so had a few more options open to me. We tried again and have no.2 - he just started school last week. I stepped back in my career and started my own practice so I could be more flexible (we don't have family help). I do miss the high profile work and sometimes have minor regrets but I also relish the time and flexibility especially as I unexpectedly ended up having to step up for my mother as she now has dementia.
Our eldest (12) spent his early years in nursery/school/ after school club and I asked him about it recently and he barely remembers it, even the trips when I travelled abroad for jobs which were heart wrenching at the time he has little memory of. He is however quite proud of what his mum does for a living.
I know quite a few drs who have been in the same position as you and they all struggle so it might be worth discussing with them the pros and cons of any decisions you take.
Whatever happens it'll be fine

So your husband CAN go part time. He’s just choosing not to as it will have a negative impact on his career prospects. Yet he’s presumably happy for you to give up your career completely? You’ve done the part time already to enable him to progress his career when the children were small. It’s his turn to make sacrifices for the next few years.

^^
This in spades.
OP what would happen if in 5 or 10 yrs time you and your OH for some reason split up and you'd given up your (likely) lucrative career to be a SAHM and he earned all the family money.

Nobody ever thinks it will happen to them. But it does. What sort of life would you then ge able to provide for your children compared to what you could do if you hadn't given up your career?

You must do what feels right for you as a family.
Trust your gut.

*@Thereisnogreengrass

So why does the op have to consider her options and her husband doesn’t? Please explain

I get that in n ideal world both parents taking a hit on their careers is better, but there are some jobs where it simply would be career suicide to work PT (for men or women) and telling the OP to tell her husband to consider his options just isn’t helpful*

Yes, no, I wasn't saying that the OP's other half doesn't need to consider their options.

I guess I'm so used to not having a husband (I don't want one!) that i don't even factor it in, so understand OP is in a different situation.

Sometimes though, it helps to see things from an alternative perspective. I think it very much depends on age too. After all OP's decision isn't it? All we can do is offer options.

Personally though in the next few years I can see that the whole way of working in the NHS must inevitably change, due to Covid and other factors.