AIBU to think teachers should not be teaching sex games to children?

[2fallsagain]

Article In today's Times about teaching resources for RSE from the proud trust.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/government-gives-pupils-sex-advice-on-the-roll-of-a-dice-80hmsplws

In summary "The government has funded a tool kit written by the Proud Trust, an LGBT charity, which includes dice featuring words such as “anus”, “vulva”, “penis” and “hands and fingers”. Children are encouraged to throw the dice twice and talk about the sexual acts that can happen using the two body parts".

AIBU to think this is deeply inappropriate and any school using Proud Trust resources needs investigating? WTF is the government doing funding pornographic material for children?

Even if potentially gay or bi male children are being "educated"; is it actually much better to be representing anal sex to.them as an expected norm; do you want your son feeling he has to do it (receive it) when he becomes sexually active as a teen, for example in an encounter or relationship with an older man, as often happens. Of the creators of the game want to depend on a butt plug for continence over time, that's up to them but stop pushing it on everyone else.

*If

I may get flamed for this but my big concern would be that introducing, say, anal sex or fisting or choking, in this sort of 'fun game' way by a teacher in a school normalises it to such an extent that teenage girls (and boys) will find it even harder to say 'no' to in real life.

That is regardless of what is said next by a responsible teacher around consent. It's already been put in a normalised, light-hearted context.

Because if its mainstream enough for your middle-aged teacher to be rolling dice and having a fun, casual chat about it, what teenager is going to want to appear less laid-back than the 40 year-old at the front of the class?

It's essentially saying, "this is a totally pedestrian sex act, but some people don't like it if they're unusually prudish and that's OK". It feels like, in a bid to be inclusive of kink engaged in by experienced, informed adults, you're setting impressionable teenage nay-sayers up as the aberration.

Given the inherent pain and physical problems these things can cause for people (and, I know, I know, some people like it and if you're careful etc. etc.) I don't think it's responsible to put it in the context of a game like this.

You only have to take a look at some of the heartbreaking threads on here of really distressed women having been made horribly uncomfortable (physically or mentally) by their partners during sex - but who are questioning whether they actually have any right to feel the way they do - to be concerned about this kind of thing.

It's already been put in a normalised, light-hearted context.

Yup.i was aware of sex at a very young age for various reasons.

I was not aware of niche, kink, alternative etc sexual practices until an adult .. and that was an appropriate time (and level.if maturity) to process them and put them in context.

Kids don't have that maturity or context framing.

So many sex acts (some bizarre and barely physically possible) on those dice ...

But not one mention of rubbing a clitoris apparently.

So young women of the next generation are going to experience even worse than I have experienced (man after man who had no idea what to do with a clitoris and thinks I'll climax from long and hard enough penetrative sex).

Fantastic.

It's essentially saying, "this is a totally pedestrian sex act, but some people don't like it if they're unusually prudish and that's OK". It feels like, in a bid to be inclusive of kink engaged in by experienced, informed adults, you're setting impressionable teenage nay-sayers up as the aberration

I agree. Schools should be reinforcing resistance to peer pressure, that nobody should be coerced into anything which makes them uncomfortable, that they do not have to capitulate to demands if they are reluctant. Not 'hold your nerve.' The more I think of the implications of this phrase, the more I think it is absolutely inappropriate and undermines the safety of these children.

If I had a class like that during my abusive childhood, I would have been absolutely terrified, thinking about what the men abusing me were going to put me through next. I know that my abusers would also have used the fact that this is being taught in schools as a further way of bullying me and normalising their abuse of me and other young victims. Part of their abuse was forcing me to watch porn and telling me in detail what they did to others.

In their eagerness to show how ‘modern thinking’ and progressive they are, they’ve given absolutely no consideration to the effect a class like this, will have on the abused children being made to sit through it. But they don’t actually care about the impact on children, because they don’t care about safeguarding in general. It’s like child abuse in plain sight. It’s depressing how many posters on here are trying to normalise this.

@Clymene

As I said earlier, this is about 'queering the classroom' where biology comes secondary to gender identity.

I also note (if you can see the photo on Shelley Charlesworth's twitter) it says in another box 'touching or stroking the penis and/or scrotum (if there is one)' . Teenage boys should all have scrotums. If they don't, there is a medical issue which needs investigating. What on earth could they mean?

Actually looking at Charlesworth's timeline again, I think I have my answer. As well as the 'dice game' the booklet includes a section about genital variation. Apparently genital variation includes extreme forms of FGM, very rare disorders of sexual development and genitals which have undergone gender reassignment surgery.

This.

I also think it is worth noting that the 'Dice Game' is only one example of inappropriate RSE materials that are being offered to schools, there are many more.

Thanks to Safe Schools Alliance for getting many of them removed and to Transgender Trend for taking them apart and showing how they are against safeguarding guidelines and the Equality Act. (You know, that law that Stonewall et all want changing to remove the single sex exemptions).

This is not just a one off; there is a clear agenda to remove boundaries, especially around girls, and to 'normalise' what are in fact NOT common sexual practices. Many of the 'charities' producing this advice are very well funded by the government, so the DofE cannot just wash their hands of this as they have tried to do (see Nick Gibb's response to a letter from Baroness Nicholson). Even the CPS had to remove 'hate crime' guidance that told girls they could be criminalised if they objected to a man being in their toilets.

All these court cases cannot come soon enough. The civil service have been complicit in this, with the GEO even endorsing some of these materials as well as funding them. Complete regulatory capture of education, the NHS, the police, and the judiciary, all of whom are supposed to uphold the law and protect the most vulnerable. They are not just failing, they are actively facilitating people who do not have the best interests of women and children at heart (which is a polite way of saying what I would really like to say but it would get me banned).

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1300729222613397506.html

This is not just a one off; there is a clear agenda to remove boundaries, especially around girls, and to 'normalise' what are in fact NOT common sexual practices. Many of the 'charities' producing this advice are very well funded by the government, so the DofE cannot just wash their hands of this as they have tried to do (see Nick Gibb's response to a letter from Baroness Nicholson). Even the CPS had to remove 'hate crime' guidance that told girls they could be criminalised if they objected to a man being in their toilets

Well said. Shame on the government for actually bankrolling this.

DeliciouslyFemale I must admit I hadn't even thought about that. I'm so sorry that you went through that.

Thank you for sharing that point of view - it can't be easy for you but it's so important because it's so easy to overlook for those of us fortunate enough not have it in our immediate frame of reference (policy advisors absolutely should, though).

I guess to take from this is that every parent should ask to see what materials are being used in these lessons

This stuff is hiding in clear view

And funded by our government

Head teachers and teachers should also be looking at this stuff

Our school sent out a link to the external resources. It wasn’t too hideous. Did use the c-word but it could have been worse I suppose.

Well, @HandfulofDust’s post was certainly educational -best demonstration of argumentsm ad hominem Ive seen for a while. Top marks!

I was not aware of niche, kink, alternative etc sexual practices until an adult .. and that was an appropriate time (and level.if maturity) to process them and put them in context.

Exactly. Learning about sex should be a slow process. My DS is 10 and pretty much now knows what sex is, but even that was a very slow process starting from about the age of 4 or 5, with him learning that babies grow in mums tummies, then that there is an egg, then that that egg needs to meet a sperm to make a baby, then that the sperm go in through the woman's vagina and finally that a penis goes into the vagina to deposit the sperm!

Once kids know about sex, they then learn that humans do it for fun and that as well as penis in vagina, humans also like to do other things. Then kids start to hear and learn about these other things, the names of them, what they involve, as they also start experiencing stuff themselves as well and deciding what they like.

To pile absolutely everything onto 13 year old children, to tell them every fucking kink and fetish all at once, for them to learn about it from their teachers and so it be legitimised in that way. They are not equipped to process it. Contrary to what some on Twitter would have you believe, not every 13 or 14 year old is shagging behind the bikesheds with multiple partners. Some of them might not have even snogged someone yet, and there is fucking nothing wrong with that. I remember being about 14 and my friend telling me about how a boy had fingered her and I was quite shocked and so not ready for that. When some of my friends started having sex at 15/16 I knew I wasn't ready for that. Fuck knows what I would have felt being told by my teacher that 'sunflowering' is totally normal.

And I know easy access to porn is an issue that didn't exist to the same extent before, but just because children might be being exposed to niche, potentially damaging sex acts via their phones is not a reason to be teaching them 'yeah this is totally normal'. Most of the sex in porn is not normal and kids who are just starting out in sex need to be told that in no uncertain terms. Otherwise boys expect to be fisting girls in the anus, and girls will think that is what is expected of them in any encounter. What does it matter really if its 'Kink shaming'? Why do 13 year old kids need to be accepting everyone's kinks?

@BovaryX

This is not just a one off; there is a clear agenda to remove boundaries, especially around girls, and to 'normalise' what are in fact NOT common sexual practices. Many of the 'charities' producing this advice are very well funded by the government, so the DofE cannot just wash their hands of this as they have tried to do (see Nick Gibb's response to a letter from Baroness Nicholson). Even the CPS had to remove 'hate crime' guidance that told girls they could be criminalised if they objected to a man being in their toilets

Well said. Shame on the government for actually bankrolling this.

Completely agree. I’m so grateful there are some organisations and posters such as both of you, who are clear thinking and fighting this.

I have contributed to the Safer Schools Alliance - it’s an important issue.

And I know easy access to porn is an issue that didn't exist to the same extent before, but just because children might be being exposed to niche, potentially damaging sex acts via their phones is not a reason to be teaching them 'yeah this is totally normal'. Most of the sex in porn is not normal

I also completely agree with this. I think that sex education has a role to play - but opposite to the dice game - in enhancing both parent and child awareness of internet safety and the potentially damaging effects of porn.

No child should be accessing porn and it is neglectful of us as parents not to be monitoring this and doing something about it.

Not - ‘oh well they are bound to see explicit extreme sex so let’s just normalise it’!

I'm still concerned about telling children how the genitals of partners who have had gender reassignment surgery can differ.

This surely can only mean they are thinking kids age from 13 could have adult partners that they need to know about sex with?

That's all kinds of no.

While accepting that children can experiment with each other etc the message around a large age gap when you're underage is that it's dodgy as fuck and to teach them about grooming

I find it odd that they define masturbation as putting fingers in a vagina, and describe touching a clitoris as a totally separate act.

I would assume that masturbation always involves the clitoris, but does not necessarily involve any kind of penetration. I am glad that I read the Female Eunuch as a teenager where she made clear that fingers, and more particularly fingernails, aren’t something that you necessarily want in your vagina. It was my first lesson in sexual consent. You can agree to a penis but still refuse fingers. Consent to one act isn’t consent to all acts.

I doubt most 13 year old girls are masturbating by putting their fingers in their vagina. The whole chart is badly written, ignorant of the basics and weirdly focussed on penetration.

I am sure that the adult women posting on here are completely unaffected by being referred to as pearl clutching morons because they are confident in themselves. Thirteen year olds will not be immune to similar immature bullying by their peers and will asume there is something wrong with them if they find this form of sex education intimidating. They need safeguarding.

@Stripesgalore

I find it odd that they define masturbation as putting fingers in a vagina, and describe touching a clitoris as a totally separate act.

I would assume that masturbation always involves the clitoris, but does not necessarily involve any kind of penetration. I am glad that I read the Female Eunuch as a teenager where she made clear that fingers, and more particularly fingernails, aren’t something that you necessarily want in your vagina. It was my first lesson in sexual consent. You can agree to a penis but still refuse fingers. Consent to one act isn’t consent to all acts.

I doubt most 13 year old girls are masturbating by putting their fingers in their vagina. The whole chart is badly written, ignorant of the basics and weirdly focussed on penetration.

It's probably because it's written by males who have no idea what females do when they masturbate and never bothered to consult any females. So again they get their ideas from porn.

@Stripesgalore

I find it odd that they define masturbation as putting fingers in a vagina, and describe touching a clitoris as a totally separate act.

I would assume that masturbation always involves the clitoris, but does not necessarily involve any kind of penetration. I am glad that I read the Female Eunuch as a teenager where she made clear that fingers, and more particularly fingernails, aren’t something that you necessarily want in your vagina. It was my first lesson in sexual consent. You can agree to a penis but still refuse fingers. Consent to one act isn’t consent to all acts.

I doubt most 13 year old girls are masturbating by putting their fingers in their vagina. The whole chart is badly written, ignorant of the basics and weirdly focussed on penetration.

Yes to that ^.

I’ll bet my left buttock this wasnt written or co-written by anyone with a vagina. I’m mad as fuck that it was funded by tampon tax.

@littlbrowndog

I guess to take from this is that every parent should ask to see what materials are being used in these lessons

This stuff is hiding in clear view

And funded by our government

Head teachers and teachers should also be looking at this stuff

It's funded by us! We had periods and this is what our tax money was spent on

And for all this talk of people who have a penis but no scrotum, why is there no mention of hymens, which are far more common, particularly in teenagers.

Which organisations are objecting to government spending money on this and promoting these programmes in schools? I looked at the safe schools alliance which was focussing a lot on trans issues. My objections are wider . There seems to be an inclination to do something about this.

Masturbation for women is sticking your fingers up your vagina?

Poor clitoris :(