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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

FIL says he's offended. Is he right?

153 replies

dustyparadeground · 29/08/2020 16:16

So, UK husband with Italian wife. 41 years together. FIL and MIL in Italy have bought land and FIL and BIL built a large villa outside Rome. Basically it is 2 semi detached houses that Italian parents apparently often do called a "bifamiliare" one house for my BIL to live in and one for my wife and I to use when we go and possibly live in when we retire. Obviously very generous although there was no discussion about it, it was simply presented as a fait accompli. Which I have always thought a bit weird. So we visited last month and I happened to refer to it as "my house" and my FIL instantly said "wasn't I ashamed to call it my house? I should at least just say my wife's house" We were in public with a few others from extended family so subject was changed. However this has been bothering me for a couple of weeks now. Especially as we have ourselves sunk 50K into this project. I should just add he was certainly quite cogent and aware of what he was saying at the time. AIBU?

OP posts:
DillyDilly · 29/08/2020 20:04

Why do you think it’s ‘your’ house rather than ‘our’ house? I can see why your FIL reacted the way he did.

justasking111 · 29/08/2020 20:04

I thought the home would be reasorbed into the family upon your wifes death. That is how it works in Umbria with my italian friends.

dustyparadeground · 29/08/2020 21:38

In no particular order:

Yes this is very definitely 2 men and their stupid big egos.
I said "my" house as my DW was not present of course its "our" house and I don't think FIL took it that way at all.
I am assuming if my wife died before me it would pass to me of course, though I would never live there alone.
And if we got a divorce it would be 50/50 though of course a judge could rule against that.
Thanks for all comments. Maybe overthinking this and BTW nobody is getting divorced or dying any time soon
I only mention where we got married as obviuosly English law applies to any divorce
By the wY its 41 years and counting ...we are happy

OP posts:
laidbacklife · 29/08/2020 22:11

Bit rude to put you in your place in public but he wasn’t wrong. It is not your house.

GrimSisters · 29/08/2020 22:22

Did you get married in the UK or in Italy? In Italy, there are two different types of marriage contract, one where what you each bring to the marriage is yours after separating, or one where everything is combined.
I know that there is a very strong sense of what is 'mine' and 'ours'. Remember noticing parents and grandparents teaching tiny children "this is mine, this is yours" etc. 'Il mio' was one of the first things my dd learned!
BTW, if your wife dies before you and the house is in your name, it would probably pass directly to your children, if you have any.

GrimSisters · 29/08/2020 22:23

Sorry, is in her name, which it probably is to be honest!

bluegreygreen · 29/08/2020 22:30

I am assuming if my wife died before me it would pass to me of course, though I would never live there alone
And if we got a divorce it would be 50/50 though of course a judge could rule against that

Would that not depend on Italian inheritance and divorce laws, given that the property is in Italy?

justasking111 · 29/08/2020 22:32

I think it is best to consider it a time share for you to enjoy which may according to the laws in that area revert to the family. You could of course make enquiries but to be honest I would not stir up that hornets nest.

justasking111 · 29/08/2020 22:36

There is a table on this website to help you better understand italian law.

www.giambronelaw.com/site/international/italian-solicitors/probate-trust-management/italian_probate/

monkeymonkey2010 · 29/08/2020 23:16

it would be kicking a wasp's nest to insist on seeing documents
50k of YOUR money - and the house is most likely only in your wife's name just like FIL reminded you.......
.........and your wife isn't any better as she hasn't 'bothered' to check this out either - but then she probably knows the answer.

Your FIL doesn't like you- he's hardly going to put your name on property/paperwork despite you handing over money is he?

monkeymonkey2010 · 29/08/2020 23:19

It's no wonder FIl walks all over you if you're too 'scared' to ask for proof of where YOUR money is actually invested - don't you need this proof for UK paperwork etc?

Skysblue · 29/08/2020 23:25

Spunds like a culture clash misunderstanding, I would ask your wife to diplomatically calm and clarify the situation. It is weird that you have put £50k in with no clarity on expectations.

I think the rudest thing is expecting you just to toe the line with whatever is standard Italian practice but not telling you exactly what is expected.

I don’t think it’s weird or rude that you called it ‘my house’ if you were talking when your wife wasn’t there. And what he said was v rude.

justasking111 · 29/08/2020 23:29

The land these properties sit on belongs to FIL though. Looking through italian law there really is nothing to be done but enjoy staying there as and when you wish.

redskittleorangeskittle · 29/08/2020 23:44

Monkey monkey- It’s not 50k of op’s money - it’s his wife’s money too. - their money.

Sunpinesmile · 29/08/2020 23:49

If you can’t see the paperwork withoit causing a row t hut en sadly it seems you have got marriage issues not FIL issues...

Sunpinesmile · 29/08/2020 23:51

That should have said:

If you can’t see the paperwork without causing a row then sadly you’ve got marriage issues not FIL issues.

dayknight19 · 30/08/2020 00:30

Ah...I am from Southern Europe and the family property issues are something incredibly irritating there.
Usually, the land upon which the house(s) are built is not separated into different titles. Usually, grandad left it to all his kids and didn’t explicitly specify what to whom. No wills. Then the houses are built one next to the other or you all live in one big one with separate flats. And it all kind of works (if you ignore the constant family infighting) until the children’s children grow up and they need space. Then you have the arguments. Like we want to extend for our daughter but that would disadvantage her cousin as he wants something different so you can’t agree and you all have a fight and don’t talk anymore.
Then you decide you have had enough and want to sell your flat/house but the land is not divided and titled so you can’t without the agreement of the other family members...then you are stuck and no one is talking to each other anymore.
This is my situation with our family home in Europe and I think everyone I know there has a similar story.
It’s a mess.
Count your lucky stars that you don’t live there and only visit sometimes. Forget what your FIL said. It’s a misunderstanding.
Let your wife deal with this as she understands it better. It would be offensive to them if you were to ask to see some docs about the house insinuating they would in anyway do something against their daughter. You know the the kids are everything to Italians/South Europeans and they do anything for them. The house is yours and your wife’s and your family’s just enjoy it.

AJGranny · 30/08/2020 00:38

I think you are getting a hard time here OP, just last week we were staying in a hotel and I said 'lets go home' plus it seems like you were speaking in a second language. Seems like the old man just likes an excuse to jump down your throat.

CatbearAmo · 30/08/2020 07:27

I'm also married to a Southern European and my fil also built us a holiday apartment. My understanding from this whole experience and my marriage in general is that it is very important to the older generation that property stays in the family. The best thing you can do for your child is to have them inherit some land or property.

We were also expected to invest in the apartment once it was built. I put my foot down and said no because it was crystal clear that as long as my pils are alive, that apartment will never belong to me. I have a sneaky feeling that my fil will put it in his will that my dd will inherit it, to prevent us ever selling it if possible.

I always refer to it as my fils/dhs apartment when in pils presence. With friends and colleagues I talk about our apartment, because in our culture it seems strange to refer to a spouses property as just theirs. But if my pils are clear on the fact it isn't really mine too, they can stop harassing us for money.

I remember having a big row with mil when I was refusing that we buy the fittings and furniture. She asked me why I wasn't grateful to be given an apartment like this. Well because it isn't mine, is it mil. I never asked for it to be built. I didn't have any say in how it was built. I didn't have any legal rights over the property. So thank you for letting me stay here once a year, but it also means we are tied to visiting you once a year for the rest of our lives, so we all have something to gain from the situation.

Your biggest mistake was investing your own money in this. You should have a conversation with your wife, and see who she thinks owns the house. If she agrees it's hers/pils then you should question the money you put in. If she agrees it's also yours, but pil doesn't like to admit it, then maybe just swallow your pride to keep the peace, and secretly enjoy the knowledge it really is yours and you own a property in Italy, which most British families don't.

dustyparadeground · 30/08/2020 07:28

monkeymonkey2010

The words nail and head spring to mind

OP posts:
dustyparadeground · 30/08/2020 07:29

Grimsisters

Similar situation? Or you are Italian!

OP posts:
dustyparadeground · 30/08/2020 07:37

Thanks again, some good comments. Maybe I have been a bit too "British" about this wanting to clear the air etc and be clear. I have always been a bit surprised by family rivalries in Italy. Brother falls out with Brother. Son cannot live with Stepfather blah blah. And you are right about it being ridiculous not to have seen documents etc. I suppose because it was done piecemeal it just never came up. 2k for the chimney and 6 months later 4k for the tiles and 3 months after that electric wiring is 2k etcetera etcetera. Anyway it's done now so too late eh?

OP posts:
chatterbugmegastar · 30/08/2020 07:58

although there was no discussion about it, it was simply presented as a fait accompli.

A fair accompli which you put £50k of joint (I presume) money into? Confused

And you referred to it as yours?

You sound a charmer 🤪

rainbowstardrops · 30/08/2020 08:34

I know if I'd stumped up £50k I'd want to know exactly who owned it and what strings were attached! Sounds bizarre not to.
I wouldn't think too much about what the old guy said though.

HannaYeah · 30/08/2020 08:40

If I’m out and about with a friend and my husband is not there I would say “Hey, do you want to go to my house?”

Not “Hey, do you want to go to our house?”