to think it's not India that people should be worried about, it's cheaper parts of the UK

[chomalungma]

If you have a high paying job in the South East - because that's what the pay levels are down there because of living costs etc - and your job can be done at home, then your job can be done in other parts of the UK for someone who will do it just as well but for less money.

There may be occasional commuting on the train - but I am sure that could be incorporated into a reasonable package.

The cost of living is much cheaper in many places in the UK compared to the South East.

It’s worth bearing in mind that Indians - at least middle class and upper ones - are by and large very educated and not just destined for call centres.

Excellent point

And just a bit more about WFH and data protection

www.enterprisetimes.co.uk/2020/08/24/how-has-covid-19-impacted-business-security

And skilled professionals like to live in warm, sunny places.

Depends what they are used to. I come from the far north. I live in the NE of England. It's plenty hot enough for me, if it's above 16C it's summer and over 25C it just gets unpleasant but that only happens once or twice a summer (when WFH is great because you can work in the very early morning and spend the afternoon in the garden).

Bettsbattenburg, having room for a home workspace isn't something confined to the well off once you get outside the south east and various other expensive hotspots. There are loads of areas of the UK where it's doable and unremarkable to have a reasonably spacious home on a modest income. It won't usually be in an MN approved area of course, but it's certainly possible!

@PiataMaiNei

Bettsbattenburg, having room for a home workspace isn't something confined to the well off once you get outside the south east and various other expensive hotspots. There are loads of areas of the UK where it's doable and unremarkable to have a reasonably spacious home on a modest income. It won't usually be in an MN approved area of course, but it's certainly possible!

Perhaps it is but there are many many families with 2 or 3 children living in 3 bedroomed semis/terraces where there is not space no matter where you are in the country. It can be doable and unremarkable for some people but for others it is a pipe dream. I'm in a cheaper area but the houses with space for a home office are beyond the average person as they are round about 300k.

I speak from a very limited view point working for Californian based big-tech and not living in London but speaking with friends who are not in my industry it is looking like its a direction of travel for a lot of companies that they have been made aware of.

The WFH situation has just opened up being able to hire staff from all over the UK regardless of where your business is, and people in deprived areas have just had a world of employment opportunities they never had before open up.

It won't be off shored unless it was already going to be, but there is a lot of city based jobs that can be done remotely that will not require a london weighted salary, there is a lot of data mining going on, and a lot of money is being ploughed into collaboration spaces. I think it will hit a lot of the middle class type jobs in London than most want to realise.

I would like to take issue with the comment that there are lots of highly qualified people out in the regions. Of course there are some, but even a cursory bit of research shows that the Greater London population is on average much more highly qualified than the rest of the country (back in the days when people read paper books it was evident even from a quick glance at what people were reading on the train/tube).

More WFH could be really good for those of us with 1.25 hour commutes from zone 4 (yes really). Sadly, my job cannot be done from home in normal circumstances and nor could my employer relocate without entirely changing what they do.

I do think at some point the house prices in the U.K. will start to settle, I know so many people who (like me) moved from the south for cheaper housing and cost of living. However there is a greater sense of deprivation here, house prices are rising but we're also very pressed for local services and councils generally do a terrible job at maintaining the place

I would like to take issue with the comment that there are lots of highly qualified people out in the regions. Of course there are some, but even a cursory bit of research shows that the Greater London population is on average much more highly qualified than the rest of the country (back in the days when people read paper books it was evident even from a quick glance at what people were reading on the train/tube

It's clear from your comments that you aren't able to understand statistics.

Yes - there are going to be more highly qualified people in the areas around London - as that's where a lot of high level jobs are.

That does not mean that there aren't lots of highly qualified people in the regions though.

I didn't say there were no families outside the south east who don't have space for a home office bettsbattenburg. Some even do it in 3 bed semis! I certainly wouldn't have categorised such houses as innately too small to allow a workspace. If by big enough you mean a 4 bedder, 300k isn't particularly cheap. Would be much less near me.

For the City-type jobs with specialised skillsets that are available in London, I wonder how easy is it to train a remote workforce in the intricacies and complexities of the job outside of an office, on-the-job learning environment. The senior people are too busy to train and the juniors take a lot in from observation of the seniors and then leaning on people of lower or mid-seniority to fill in the gaps.

I am having to train some people from scratch. It takes much much longer remotely on a skype call/screen share than sitting across each other looking at the same document. They have less access to me and I to them so gaps in their learning go unfilled unless they were persistent sorts but not everyone is like that.

If it was so easy to train a remote workforce, given how firms have always been looking to reduce their cost base, I wonder why it hasn't already happened. The Belfast near-shoring example is the creation of a hub in a cheaper location but it is still a hub i.e. people working together in the same office location often with someone travelling up or previously based in London to train and supervise the remote hub.

London will bounce back. There's nowhere in the UK with the same concentration of arts venues and I think we will have learnt to live safely with Covid by the end of 2021

I am dubious about wfh being a permanent thing. I think the winter will really take the shine off it, people's heating bills will go through the roof.

I would like to take issue with the comment that there are lots of highly qualified people out in the regions. Of course there are some, but even a cursory bit of research shows that the Greater London population is on average much more highly qualified than the rest of the country (back in the days when people read paper books it was evident even from a quick glance at what people were reading on the train/tube).

I am going to gloss over your assumption that people outside of london are less educated or intelligent, you have ignored the new normal for business, someone doing HR or middle management type jobs outside of london is not any less employable than someone in the city, all candidates are equally qualified and one doesn't have the london weighting involved, add onto that the draw to london to get such jobs it will be a snowball effect.

Stats and data don't back you up, and, the big tech/finance firms have already been data mining the situation and are looking at setting up regional colab bases, it is the middle management type jobs that are going to be hit, and businesses don't care about what type of book is being read on public transport.

A lot of 'city' companies are realising that after 6 months of WFH why someone in Newcastle can do the exact same job as those within the M25 but for less money(whilst bringing up the regional wage in newcastle) but without the london weighting.

This Square mile is unique and untouchable because it is relevant on global scale, everything else is now fair game despite how unique or important you think your job is.

For the City-type jobs with specialised skillsets that are available in London, I wonder how easy is it to train a remote workforce in the intricacies and complexities of the job outside of an office, on-the-job learning environment.

It depends on the City type job though, the square mile will survive as is because it is global, the middle management document management/hr/customer relations has already proven itself as to be not required on site, a lot of companies are starting to realise that paying someone a city wage to highlight the 'intricacies and complexities of the job outside of an office' can be done a lot cheaper to someone in newcastle etc as it doesn't require a london wage and most of the face to face is just a form of presenteeism

London will bounce back. There's nowhere in the UK with the same concentration of arts venues and I think we will have learnt to live safely with Covid by the end of 2021

And posters wonder why MN is consistently mocked when it comes to political discussion.

A couple of issues: Nobody has touched on diversity

What absolute trash trying to bring IDPOL into this subject, I'm not white and happily live in the north and significantly out earn you and your friends, so do most of my friends, who are also a mix of.

Trying to pull some oppression stack on this is some middle class bullshit.

I am with Bateshotel. I am BAME and won't want to live outside London due to the lack of diversity.

I do believe in the ability of London to bounce back with lower property prices. That can only be a good thing. People will be encouraged to work from the office a few days a week. We will put covid behind us and move on with more of a mix of WFH and WOH. Again, a good thing. I am pretty highly trained and can WFH easily but I go into the office to train and be available for the juniors - it is my duty.

I went to my friend's house in a London commuter belt. The house was worth a million and it was the most soulless place I have ever been. I wanted to buy her some flowers and walked and walked and walked and there wasn't a single shop to even buy food, never mind flowers. I can't imagine anyone living there voluntarily. I can imagine estates like that becoming ghost towns (and a lot of happier people further up the country)

I pity the people in London who think their northern peers who have sacrificed a pay rise to live near family aren't just as hungry, educated and qualified for the top jobs. Actually, I'm a British citizen in another European country and I'm going to be keeping my eyes peeled on UK job sites in future. A great job could now be a 36 euro easyJet commute away once a month, and I could keep living in the sunshine the rest of the time.

The Belfast near-shoring example is the creation of a hub in a cheaper location but it is still a hub i.e. people working together in the same office location often with someone travelling up or previously based in London to train and supervise the remote hub.

I think the hub thing will become more popular.

Excellent point @Bateshotel I also agree with you about the ability to wfh already.

Don't loads of people from "up
north" migrate to London for work anyway so they might not mind going back to where they grew up/have family.

@Justanotherlurker so you remote work & earn very well as do your peers in the north?

Gosh, we're back to the same old prejudices about the north that comes up on every thread about the north south divide. We're uneducated, uncultured and racist. Nice.

I do think London is hard to beat in terms of diversity & crucially integration. The first time I met someone who didn't have migrant parents was university.

I’m mixed raced and agree with Bateshotel. Many BAME and other types of minorities will not move outside of the South East due to not feeling welcome in many other areas of the country (Brexit opened up a lot of eyes). Plus the weather..plus believe it or not many people like living in London, not everyone secretly wishes to live in villages or small towns where everyone is allegedly friendlier. People can be angry with that sentiment but it’s true.

Also I genuinely don’t believe most corporates will have the majority of their staff WFH full time permanently. Staff will be in the office on rota, there will be 3 days in, 2 days WFH or visa versa. I think a lot of people are getting a bit carried away with a situation which has lasted 6 months.

Over the next 6 months people will notice they’re paying astronomical energy bills WFH. More people will start to feel isolated, not everyone has a family and wants to WFH to spend more time with them. I think the MN demographic skews that way but many people outside of the MN demographic live alone and like the interaction of colleagues. Winter in the dark WFH alone is not an attractive prospect for many of those people. My DSis is single and has become quite depressed stuck in front of her laptop by herself.

I’m betting that by next Spring that if we don’t have a vaccine, there will be better treatments and we will learn to live with virus. The genie is out of the bottle regarding WFH but it won’t be full time or anywhere near it for most, maybe 2 days a week at best.

There are all kinds of articles claiming the ‘new normal’ will be 100% different from the old but I think it’s all getting a bit Tomorrows World. Sure there will be changes but not as major as some are proclaiming.