to think it's not India that people should be worried about, it's cheaper parts of the UK

[chomalungma]

If you have a high paying job in the South East - because that's what the pay levels are down there because of living costs etc - and your job can be done at home, then your job can be done in other parts of the UK for someone who will do it just as well but for less money.

There may be occasional commuting on the train - but I am sure that could be incorporated into a reasonable package.

The cost of living is much cheaper in many places in the UK compared to the South East.

We have discovered that all our work can be done remotely in my team. But also this lockdown has taught us what is lost when you never get face to face interaction. I would expect anyone working in my team to be coming into the office for at least some of each week once Covid is over, and I expect most employers will decide the same. So more home working will be possible but actually think full home working will be quite rare still.

I forsee health and saftet regulations coming in for home workers. You'll need a proper desk with swivel chair and appropriate lighting. Anyone that doesn't have room for this won't be allowed to work from home.

There is already health and safety legislation for home workers. When we started WFH in March we all had to update our DSE assessments and were told to take home everything we needed. Since I live in the NE we all had room in our houses for a desk, the big issue was for parents who had to juggle WFH and home education.

Insurance companies will like it to, they continue to rake in the premiums and have lower risk for so many houses are now occupied all day. Meanwhile the risk for those of us who have to go out for work goes up as the chances are we are one of the few on the road that is unoccupied.

You only need to accommodate a lap top or computer. It doesn’t need hoards of space.

But working from a laptop on your sofa or bed isn't an appropriate way to be working. If you work in an office you have to have health and safety checks to make sure you're not damaging you're back or getting rsi.

I don't think people should be forced into working from home if they don't want to or don't have appropriate working space. And I think as the gov want people back in the office, they will use health and safety as the way to get people back in.

I actually think a mix of communal office spaces in local town centres, wfh and central office buildings would work best for everyone.

If you only had to go to London a couple of times a month you could live where ever you want. But if you don't want to, or can't accommodate office space at home - you could go to a local communal office space and your company hires a space for you. Let's not forget that come winter we're all going to have to pay for heating and lighting at home - or sit wrapped up in duvets on zoom calls.

where i work the better paid could work from home, and they were all set up with attic rooms/garden rooms, comfy chairs.
the less well off more likely to live in cramped conditions and had to go into work anyway!

@Untam3d

My Dh simply moved his office chair and screens to home, not hard.

No way could he do his job in an office hub due to security and long vocal meetings.

Hasn’t held him back at all. Just been offered an interesting new project and has been working solely from home since March. He is talking to his team continuously all day. They were never sitting side by side anyway so not a lot different.

That's an advantage the more well off will have, more space to have an office at home.

I think it will be interesting - and it's not so much a mass exodus of people but maybe an effect on competition for jobs.

A job is advertised for a role that can be done primarily at home as companies have now realised that WFH works for them.

Person A lives in the South East. Needs a good salary to pay for the expensive cost of living down there.

Person B lives in a cheaper part of the UK. Doesn't need as good a salary as has lower housing costs.

Both can do the job. One can potentially do it for cheaper.

This is a good article on the negative effect of remote meetings and conference calls.

theconversation.com/5-reasons-why-zoom-meetings-are-so-exhausting-137404

It highlights things like the importance of non-verbal cues which are harder to pick up on video, the impact on cognitive load/working memory and the lack of opportunity for informal catchups and networking.

I don't think the change in places like the City will be as large as you think. Those companies will offer greater flexibility and more home working but they definitely are keen to have teams back in the office for at least 3 days. They need face to face collaboration and certain things work better in an office environment.

DH works in the City and WFH has been fine but its been wall to wall video meetings with very little space in between and that is not sustainable. Also some staff have asked to go back into the office more for their mental health (imagine working from your bedroom in a flat share in Clapham etc).

I do think people will move further and happily have a longer commute, but I don't think they'll be relocating lock, stock and barrel to

It will be interesting to see. And I agree about the savings to the employers but increased costs of WFH for the employees.

I don't think individual people's jobs will go that way. For a start, is it legal to make someone redundant and then replace them with someone else doing exactly the same job in the same way?

I do think peope wfh will be asked to take paycuts, but they may be happy with that, in the face of reduced costs.

I don't think India is the risk, time difference, difficult accent etc but I do think a lot of the EU nationals currently working successfully in UK, might return home as Brexit becomes felt and take their jobs with them, never to return. Once that's seen to be working, recruitment could move to those places.

Over time, some London jobs could well be done in other regions of UK and that's probably a good thing.

I don't think individual people's jobs will go that way. For a start, is it legal to make someone redundant and then replace them with someone else doing exactly the same job in the same way

I am sure they can find a way.
Or recruiting for higher roles - people might suddenly find that the promotion they want goes to someone who can do that same role but for less money than someone else living in a more expensive part of the country.

Who knows....

It highlights things like the importance of non-verbal cues which are harder to pick up on video, the impact on cognitive load/working memory and the lack of opportunity for informal catchups and networking

Totally agree - and this is what companies need to survive and grow, to stand out and to deliver for clients. Much easier for a quick chat about an opportunity, informal chats in a corridor and you find something out / pass something on etc - which is much much more difficult when people are at home.

Agree! A few law firms have set up satellite offices in Belfast in the past few years because the wages are so much lower than London. They can employ more experienced Belfast lawyers for a similar price to trainees. A lot of the routine stuff has gone over so London offices are for the high end big stuff to justify 100k+ wages.

@Rachellow

Really? I’m sceptical because the legal system is different in Northern Ireland. I can believe it’s happening for unqualified document production work or call centre type work, but not legal work.

Mass ‘north-shoring’ (to the north of England) has been predicted in the legal profession for the last two decades. It hasn’t happened on a huge scale - yet. It’s happened for low value claims work but not really for the big ticket stuff. Because lots of clients want the cachet and expertise of a City firm and are prepared to pay for it.

I could see things changing - law firms are realising they can save money on office space and salaries just like everyone else. But not that dramatically. The main change I’m seeing at the moment is people looking to return to the office 2-3 days a week and looking for homes in commutable villages in the South East.

Errrrm Tectonicplates you what now?!.Also surely your therapists in a massive metropolis like London come from various places around the world and also study after study on regional accents has shown Geordie accents to be one of the most trusted and calming accents in the U.K.

Just what I said. I'm not changing it. I'm used to all sorts of accents for work purposes and friendships - my DH is actually from another country - but if I'm choosing a therapist then yes, I'll want them to have A Southern English accent.

I can understand most UK accents, but out of all the people I've met where I could barely understand a word they were saying, Geordies are at the top of the list. Why would I choose such a person as a therapist? Listening intently to understand someone's strong accent takes up extra brain power, the exact opposite of calming. Why would I choose that for myself in therapy of all places?

@Ethelfleda

I agree, OP. I’ve been thinking about this. The knock on effect on house prices in the commuter belt will be interesting...

My other wonder is, if firms switch to 100% WFH and save a fuck ton on leasing property, upkeep of property and all overheads - they’re hardly likely to pass that cost on to their employers are they? Meanwhile, everyone is stuck WFH paying higher energy costs (especially with winter coming) and being told to feel glad they just have a job. So all of those savings made by firms go straight in to the pockets of the shareholders and directors.

Seems unfair, somehow. Especially if they then save a fuck ton on outsourcing work to cheaper parts of the country.

It will be a long time before most firms are saving a fuck load of money. Many are struggling to survive at the moment. Don’t think there are many directors and shareholders raking it in currently.

DP is in a senior role in a corporate. All in he’ll be looking at a 50% pay-cut this year. I’m on maternity leave but also in a senior role. My peers are looking at a 20% pay-cut (mainly so we can maintain staff bonuses as much as possible).

A valid point- given things such as GDPR and other data issues, much easier to relocate work to other parts of the UK, as we have noticed with our outsourced contracts.

@dementedma

In the office I have a desk, an ergonomic chair and double screens. Now i "work" from the sofa or kitchen table or bed, on a laptop. I live in a flat with 3 other family members, all at home. It's awful, uncomfortable and distracting. I am not motivated at all in a job I used to love which used to involve events and meetings all over the country and which now involves Zoom and emails in my kitchen. Despite a W'app group and weekly Zoom meeting I am losing touch with my team who are equally frustrated and miserable. If this is the future, count me out.

I’m really worried about this too. My mat leave ends soon. I don’t need to work financially but have always loved my job and thrive on the social aspect (meeting clients, spending time with my teams, networking, travel, etc). I’m dreading going back now. Just not sure what I will enjoy about sitting in front of my laptop literally all day.

I’ve never been a fan of working from home. Used to do it maybe 2 days a month. Really not looking forward to that flipping to maybe 2 days a month in the office.

Love the scare tactics OP.

I'm in the tech sector where outsourcing and WFH is a way of life and has been for at least a couple of decades. The reason people still have highly paid jobs is that companies realise that they need to pay a premium for particular skills plus they need people who are competent and able to talk to different parts of the business. The latter in loads of cases involves being able to travel into face-to-face meetings at short notice. This limits where you can live from where the company states their bases are.

I have a sibling who works in publishing. His company tried to outsource their roles first to another country then when that didn't work to a different part of the UK to save costs. They ended up making them all WFH and saving 80% of their jobs - those with no space to WFH lost their jobs - as they realised they couldn't replaced their skilled staff. This happened over a decade ago.

Before Covid I frequently traveled on trains after rush hour or went to the shops in my local area in the middle of the day. I've overheard accountants, lawyers and various other professionals talking in their mobiles to different customers as they were either traveling into face-to-face meetings as well or simply doing a chore while WFH.

Point is some businesses pre-covid thought that their staff had to be in the office all the time to work where others realised that staff didn't and they could save money by not having so many or as large offices.

PP have mentioned GDPR, in the same vein I was talking to a window-cleaner who I'd worked with in the past, and they said "you'd be amazed at what you can see on the computer screens of people working from home".
If a window cleaner can see potentially private or important info, what about other members of your household, especially in a house-share?

I love the way people are determined to fight on side or other of this argument depending on their personal situation.

It won't be all or nothing. Some jobs will continue wfh, some peope will have to return to the office, some jobs will end up being done elsewhere over time.

GDPR - and working from home - indeed.

How much company data, personal data etc is either being left on paper in a house, or has been downloaded on to personal devices with poor anti virus protection because offices don't have the correct IT in place?

How many paper files are still being used?
Left in bedrooms etc
Do companies know what data is out there?

@chomalungma another scare tactic. Not everyone works for companies like Talk Talk.

[quote RedRumTheHorse]@chomalungma another scare tactic. Not everyone works for companies like Talk Talk.[/quote]
What scare tactic?

How do people access their company system?
Can they download data onto their home PC?
What about home printing?
Paper files on customers

The biggest way to lose data is via the staff - through a range of ways - either malicious or accidental.

Much easier to have this happen with a lot of WFH without thoughts about the data GDPR issues

GDPR is about much more than lost data. There are four of us wfh in this house. Very difficult to make sure no one overhears something confidential.

@Ifailed

OP, you are assuming that there are people in other parts of the country with similar experience, skills etc. who are available to take on the role. There are many niche jobs concentrated in the SE which are not generally available elsewhere.

I worked in the NW, in an area that had under 32% of 16 year olds staying on for any kind of FE or training. It was by no means exceptional. We had 3rd generation unemployed. So there’s going to have to be huge investment in engaging and training a workforce in many areas if decentralisation is going to work.

@FinnyStory

GDPR is about much more than lost data. There are four of us wfh in this house. Very difficult to make sure no one overhears something confidential.

In a sense, that's lost data.

Data breaches, confidentiality, ensuring data is kept safe and secure, minimising risk of loss, ensuring people knowing where data is etc.