To feel so angry at the prospect of a no deal Brexit

[toastmeahotcrossbun]

The clock is ticking now and this looks like the most likely scenario. It's not fair on the almost half the population who voted remain, and it's not fair even on those who voted leave because it's so different from what they were promised. And, to inflict this on the country in the middle of the pandemic is the last thing we need.

David Frost, the UK's Chief Negotiator is doing his best to get a deal and Michel Barnier has to understand that he is not in a position to impose anything on the UK

True and neither can the UK impose anything on the EU, like keeping the Dublin treaty & being able to return migrants or staying in the Galileo project.
Its a negotiation, requires compromises on both sides but we cling to this idea of empire and our elevated place in the world which is odd because even a failed state like Iran pushes us around, we can't protect our shipping or our citizens.

Unfortunately, the UK can never be "Great again" our time has passed and we are now a middling country among many others, it would be better to recognise this and work with others to achieve change, as the German FM said Germany outside of the EU is an unimportant country, inside we have influence as part of a bloc of 450m peoples and 27 countries.

No-deal means we'll be using that lorry park in Kent & it was criminal not to have sought a 2 year extension until CV-19 was dealt with.

Then again, much like health or education, these toffs in charge of us won't be affected, so don't care.

YANBU.

Watching leave supporters double down and pretend that this was the Brexit they voted for (despite being promised a very different one, despite pouring scorn on any remainer who said it would go badly and screeching 'Project Fear' any time a likely negative consequence was raised) is interesting.

Look for Johnson in a school, fridge or tent.

Why would you bother with Piers Morgan's silly stunt on the eve of an 80 seat victory?

When the opposition claimed Boris Johnson was "missing" - he was in Northern Ireland -

13 August, 2020;

"British Prime Minister Boris Johnson has started a series of meetings with political leaders on a visit to Northern Ireland."

"He is meeting First Minister Arlene Foster and Deputy First Minister Michelle O'Neill at Hillsborough Castle, where he will later have his first face-to-face meeting with Taoiseach Micheál Martin."

www.irishnews.com/news/politicalnews/2020/08/13/news/boris-johnson-meeting-arlene-foster-and-michelle-o-neill-at-hillsborough-castle-2035024/

He says;
"Leaving the European Union is going to be the greatest opportunity,economically, for this country."*

and yet...

Fund founded by Rees-Mogg sets up post-Brexit vehicle in Dublin

www.ft.com/content/38987fe2-6f19-11e8-92d3-6c13e5c92914

Rees -Mogg said “We won’t know the full economic consequences for a very long time,” he said. “The overwhelming opportunity for Brexit is over the next 50 years.” So, not long to go now!

In a speech in 2016, the prominent leave campaigner and then future Brexit secretary David Davis said: “The greatest improvements will come if we grasp the opportunities for free trade with both hands. That means immediately seeking free trade agreements with the biggest prospective markets as fast as possible. There is no reason why many of these cannot be achieved within two years.”

Covid changes everything, the world will be less global, more onshoring and FTA will be much harder to negotiate.

@GhostofFrankGrimes

In all fairness, Brits did apply - I know at least one person on here did - but were turned down because farmers want Eastern Europeans. Easier to exploit.

Exploitation of workers is what happens when unions are purposely run down and undermined over the decades. The British have had their own governments doing that, not the EU. But thanks for the ancedote.

I know. And I voted Remain.

Clavinova, have you watched the clip or only the first 20 seconds .

He says:
'Leaving the European Union is going to be the greatest opportunity, economically, for this country'

Then he says:
'I've accepted that anybody can be wrong'

'We won't know the full economic consequences for a very long time'

'We'll have an indication. We'll know whether there's been chaos . We'll know whether there's been job losses. The overwhelming opportunity for Brexit is over the next 50 years.'

TBH I don't know whether he means the opportunity will be for the next 50 years then it'll all go to shit, or if we'll have to wait 50 years to see any of the good stuff. Either way, we are completely and utterly fucked.

Rees-Mogg and his lying obfuscations. What he means is that, as usual in "Great" Britain, it is a great opportunity for those who had rich grandparents to take yet more away from those who have nothing. Someone's already referenced the trade negotiations with America, the land of equality itself.

What people really needed to think more about was what "short term pain, long term gain" means to these Eton aristocrats playing with the lives of 68 million people for their own financial gain. It isn't what it means to us. For many it will mean death. For many more it will mean serious hardship and more of what's left of their futures taken away.

Rees -Mogg said “We won’t know the full economic consequences for a very long time,” he said. “The overwhelming opportunity for Brexit is over the next 50 years.”

In answer to; "What if you are wrong?" - not "What if you are right"?

I could ask you;
"What if you are wrong about Turkey not joining the EU in the next 20 years?"

We are proper fucked

Like the big bunny

Yanbu

Tbh this whole thread is making me angry just reading the comments

I have lost countless friends over the brexit debate and it's not looking like it will get better

Hoping it will go shit as expected, different government are elected and try to get us back in

His answers to; "What if you are right"? have been edited out.

It's a great opportunity for disaster capitalists and very very rich people. A nightmare for everyone else.

Clavinova, that's a bit circular..... and, beggar me, is Rees-Mogg actually admitting that he could be wrong. Well, I never.

I'm angry this isn't in the proper Brexit section
You need to see a doctor if you feel angry at something as insignificant as that. You are obviously not coping and need help.

It's a great opportunity for disaster capitalists and very very rich people.

In what way?

FullFact;

"An article in the Byline Times, which has been shared tens of thousands of times on social media, makes a series of claims about donors to Vote Leave and Boris Johnson’s leadership campaign standing to profit from a no deal Brexit."

But at least one key part of the article—a claim that the number of “short positions” taken by hedge funds increased dramatically in the lead up to Boris Johnson’s election as Conservative leader—seems likely to be based on a misunderstanding of the data."

fullfact.org/economy/short-positions/

Johnson and co must have been fucking delighted that coronavirus came along to both take the focus away from Brexit and to take the blame for any economic fall out. It must have been like a dream scenario for them.

I'm angry that they will be able to spin any negative consequences into some kind of post pandemic fall out.

I'm angry that the vast majority of people, including a lot of leave voters, didn't want no deal Brexit but they don't give a fuck.

I'm annoyed that the gov allowed a vote on a vague idea instead of setting out a policy for moving forward post-leave if leave won. It was pretty clear that not everybody was voting based on the same ideal of what would happen "after".

It was pretty clear that not everybody was voting based on the same ideal of what would happen "after".

Exactly. Blank cheque to extreme right wingers and for everyone else, there seems to be absolutely nothing we can do about it.

Do you think remain would win if there were a referendum based on what we all now know?

I don't. I am a remainer. I think leave would win again. Likely with a larger margin.

Remainers look even more like an out of touch liberal elite now. I am a remainer. I am one of the 1%. I have libertarian politics.

Other remainers labelling leavers as right wing bigots while hand wringing about how awful it is that the right thinking people aren't being allowed to over rule the peasants pushes more people towards leave.

There are plenty of people who want the liberal elite to know they won't be pushed around. They do not like being told they must be right wing extremists if they disagree with the elite.

@northernstar0412

'What pisses me off about Brexit is that it never needed to happen in the first place. It was a row among the Tory right. Cameron feared the threat of Nigel Farage, and disruption within his own party, so gambled by calling the referendum. Cameron, then heading the coalition government, told Donald Tusk: "Don't worry, the Lib Dems will block it." But then won a majority at the next election, so there was no coalition to block Brexit. Cameron totally fucked up.'

Cameron promised a referendum for four reasons

1 The rising popularity of UKIP was making it hard to justify the continuation of the FPTP electoral system.

2 As you suggest, he had to kill the issue off within his own party.

3 He didn't believe he'd get a majority in the election.

4 The big one.. it never even entered his mind that the public would have the temerity, or courage, depending on your viewpoint, to vote leave.

‘There are plenty of people who want the liberal elite to know they won’t be pushed around’ is partly what the Brexit vote was about for a lot of leave voters. A two fingers up to the establishment rather than a considered decision about the actual EU and our place in it. It was a throwing of toys out of the pram.

I’m still gutted that we’re out of the EU. Let’s just hope we don’t now start cosying up with China, Russia and the US [shudder].

Do you think remain would win if there were a referendum based on what we all now know?

Yes, and there are polls which confirm this

Do you think remain would win if there were a referendum based on what we all now know?

I honestly don't know. I know at least 3 people who voted leave who regret it. I know many more who have doubled down on their views and won't entertain any thinking at all apart from "we won, we've left"

There's also a subset of people who claim they voted remain but would vote leave any time in the future because "democracy".

IF remain did win a second ref, it would be such a narrow margin that it would cause even more division.

Other remainers labelling leavers as right wing bigots

Most people I know irl who voted Leave ARE racist. Proper unashamed "they should all fuck off home" racist and they've got a lot worse over the last four years, they never used to be nearly this bad. Before the referendum they didn't dare say what they really think about immigrants or BAME people, they can now and they've got a government they like doing what they want. Now I know this won't be everyone's personal experience, but it is mine. Also, I follow leave groups on Facebook, the racism is AWFUL. If you can't see how racism was a significant factor in the Leave win you are being deliberately blind. Anyway, they won and we are where we are.

@toastmeahotcrossbun

Do you think remain would win if there were a referendum based on what we all now know?

Yes, and there are polls which confirm this

Polls suggested that remain would win the first time, too.