To wonder if you know that the meat you buy could have been raised in a factory farm...

[MsWonderful]

And that the animals could also have been subjected to horrific cruelty even if the farm is Red Tractor approved?
www.daventry.radio/daventry-farm-suspended-from-red-tractor-scheme-amid-animal-welfare-concerns/

@Ihaventgottimeforthis

stylishmummy there will always be some consumers who value price over quality & safety but hopefully you're in a minority. It's why we end up with unregulated horsemeat in lasagnas.

When I was truly skint and shopping the value meat, I never ever bought ready meals. I couldn’t afford them.

Ihaventgottimeforthis

Oatlys ice cream is delicious and the yoghurt is decent! They are
Coming out with more products like oat chocolate etc but yes it still needs more time and work but I think you can agree we can live without these thing if we had to

Scowry
We can all Google statistics for example 90% of chickens consumed in the uk are boiler chicken! (imported /not imported who knows)
Also mega farms have more animals so one mega farm can have more than 1 million chickens in it!!! Fuck that's alot I think that's more at the biggest end of the scale but they definitely produce more meat
Farmers are not evil! They are making a living and sometimes not a good one so would it also not be in their best interest to stop these large factories throwing out chickens as cheaply as they can?

I found an Irish company who source oats etc for a plant based production line alongside a significant dairy enterprise www.glanbiairelandingredients.com/

Interesting to note that plant and nut juice manufacture is the epitome of processed, industrialised, intensive factory farming.
Livestock ownership is such an important element in nutrition & economic survival for people (especially women) in developing regions. Rearing animals for food helps many women ensure their families are subsistent and hopefully economically independent.

40andginger my DH drinks Oatly, it's not to my taste but I'll have to get him to try the ice cream.
How would you persuade more people to switch from dairy to plant juice?
Their website was down this morning but I'd like to know more about who grows their oats for them, and where.

Scowry We can all Google statistics for example 90% of chickens consumed in the uk are boiler chicken! (imported /not imported who knows)

The difference is that I've provided the most recent actual UK government documents and statistics, in easy read format.

Not opinion pieces from Viva et al with links to vague, out of date and US based statistics.

To refer back to the OP, I think more visibility of actual farms would help everybody - root out the bad farmers with poor practices, encourage best practice & hopefully boost consumer confidence, understanding & support.
Countryfile ain't it, but programmes like Harvest & This Farming Life for me are fairly representative.

So, and I don't profess to be an expert, my dad was an arable farmer with a smallish council rented farm, in an intensively farmed part of the country.

Observations from my childhood -

Sheep farmer over the way shooting himself in the head after being prosecuted by the RSPCA. Sheep seen in fields near us, seemingly healthy, up until his death.

School friend showing me round her dads chicken farm - the one shed I went into was like hell on earth. I won't describe it, you'll have to use your imagination.

Bloody school visit to yet another farm. Learnt friend dads poultry keeping wasn't an exception. Got shown around yet another shed, this time saw supposedly free range turkeys. They were in a dark, overcrowded shed, it was bad.

On same school trip learnt in BORING detail all about smelly, old silage and how important it was. Came away with the impression that is ALL livestock eat in this country. Those cows were grazed in fields. Regularly saw cows and sheep that looked happy enough.

Mysterious enclosed massive sheds dotted around the county. When I asked dad/mum what they were, I never got an answer and a swift conversation change.

Loads of local pork eaten/sold in various forms. Never saw a pig throughout my whole childhood. Apart from a pot bellied one who sat on the village green (?)

I knew a couple of people with learning difficulties who went to work in slaughterhouses after they left school, which has always made me feel uneasy.

The most interesting thing about this thread for me is how many conflicting ideas we have about where meat comes from. My guess is it wildly varies? But having seen what a strangely covert operation it is in places, I wouldn't trust that red tractor symbol.

And Open Farm Sunday is excellent.

@40andginger

Doccomplaint Yes I know this! but cows milk is linked to all sorts of health issues We don't need to have alternatives for everything! I don't try n replicate steaks with vegetables or beans! I use oat milk because I'm not keen on black coffee and because cereal is a bit dry without it It's not a staple in my diet The only thing you need that you can't get from plants is B12 and I actually think they have found it in particular seaweeds now!

Obviously babies can't eat all the foods that would help them grow healthy so they need it via breast milk/formula but other than breast milk it's all fortified anyway

I was advised to eat oily fish throughout the last trimester to ensure that she got a supply of Vitamin D from BF (it's added to formula), in addition, babies need vitamin K shots or drops after birth (it's added to formula).

For the first, I was vegetarian/exploring becoming vegan. I believed you could get 'everything from plants' because that was what I'd been told - just have a glass of orange juice with your leafy salad and you'll be fine. At 17+6, I was in hospital with an Hb of 4.2. At 20 weeks, I was back again with bleeding. And 24 weeks. Aggressive supplementation got it up to the heady heights of 8.0 by 40 weeks. Anaemia in pregnancy is especially dangerous as it puts you at risk of miscarriage/haemorrhage/severe bleeding.

It really didn't work to avoid animal products. I loved pulses, loved vegetables, loved grains. Happy to take multivitamins, thought chocolate oat milk was a brilliant invention and if I was worried about taking steroids so much, well, I just had to have a source of vitamin C (so more vegetables) with my vegetables.

Yeah. I get the results of my bone density scan on Thursday. I've had clinical osteomalacia for about 6 years, a chronic Vitamin D deficiency that hasn't responded to sunlight or high dose supplementation and I've had lower spine pain, shrunk 2 inches in 3 years, a foot that feels like it's been stamped on and quite possibly a broken hip in the same period. I've been walking/limping through hip pain since I was 36.

I'm eating animal products.

@Ihaventgottimeforthis

40andginger my DH drinks Oatly, it's not to my taste but I'll have to get him to try the ice cream. How would you persuade more people to switch from dairy to plant juice? Their website was down this morning but I'd like to know more about who grows their oats for them, and where.

Most likely Russia and Northern European countries for the Oatly we drink in this country.

Ihaventgottimeforthis

I changed for the health benifits of a plant based diet and obviously had to find an alternative for my coffee
I tried a few and alot of them were not to my taste either

And there is the animal welfare side

But to be honest if people don't want to change they won't and there's nothing I can say to get them to stop

I think the world is fucked to be honest and we have made a right cock up of it! And people including myself need to do more and change our attitudes

Organic is the best marker of high welfare meat. RSPCA assured is the next best thing. Red tractor doesn't mean much, as you say OP. There is a charity called Compassion in World Farming that has good information about this stuff.

We need to get away from this idea that meat is an essential daily staple. Many of the world's poorest people are vegetarian or vegan. If you can't afford to eat high welfare meat you shouldn't be eating meat.

You only have to read up on it for about 10 minutes to understand the appalling conditions that intensively farmed animals exist in (I wouldn't call it "living") to go off cheap meat forever. Lots of people just prefer to live in wilful ignorance and make excuses.

Mitzik

It's sound alike it doesn't work for you but I'm sure you will agree there are plenty of healthy plant based people out there!

I am not a Dr and I don't know your diet choices when you were veg /vegan and how long for or your medical history that may impact your health

But I do hope your health improves

Can any longterm vegans come on here and tell us how healthy they are?
I have only been plant based for a little under 2 years but I do feel great

jeremypaxo I think you're wrong about many of the world's poorest people bring vegetarian or vegan, frankly. They may not have much meat or dairy in their diets, but that wont be by choice, unless there are cultural and religious reasons.
Scrowy I think you're right - vast plains of semi natural grasslands converted to monoculture of grains & oil seeds, with the attendant artificial fertilisers, pesticides, herbicides, fungicides, neonicotinouds, glyphosate etc that all requires.
Not a herbivorous hoof or dung pat in sight, to help restore soil health.
I exaggerate but you get my point.

If you can't afford to eat high welfare meat you shouldn't be eating meat.

I can't disagree more with this. Many people in the world's poorer places do not live somewhere where they will meet their nutritional needs with a vegan diet. A bit of animal protein will make a huge difference to their health.

They also eat much less wastefully in terms of animal products. Where I grew up, people eat every part of a chicken including the bones, chicken heads and feet, tripe stew, sheep heads. They are not squeamish and cannot afford to be.
Nose to tail before it became a wanky term for the middle classes.

Maasai people drinking blood & milk springs to mind.

@jeremypaxo

Organic is the best marker of high welfare meat. RSPCA assured is the next best thing. Red tractor doesn't mean much, as you say OP. There is a charity called Compassion in World Farming that has good information about this stuff.

We need to get away from this idea that meat is an essential daily staple. Many of the world's poorest people are vegetarian or vegan. If you can't afford to eat high welfare meat you shouldn't be eating meat.

You only have to read up on it for about 10 minutes to understand the appalling conditions that intensively farmed animals exist in (I wouldn't call it "living") to go off cheap meat forever. Lots of people just prefer to live in wilful ignorance and make excuses.

You're talking about food. That thing that keeps people alive. You're telling people they don't deserve whatever food they can get hold of because they're poor.

That's like the penalties for poor people found poaching deer, as it was too good for the likes of them. Of wearing particular colours or materials, because they were getting above their station.

[Raises hands and clicks fingers] Thank you, children. Now, listen carefully, the rules have changed a little since last term. All those here in receipt of free school meals - you are no longer allowed to have lunches like the nice middleclass children because you're poor and your Mummies and Daddies won't buy high welfare meals. That means that if there are sausage, beans and chips, you're just allowed the beans and chips. No, give that back, Ava. Only children whose parents are both in fulltime employment and earning over average wage are allowed to have the sausages or chocolate cake. Yes, I know it's not your fault that Daddy died of cancer, dear. Maybe if he'd eaten fewer Turkey Twizzlers, you wouldn't be in this situation now, however. Now stop gazing at the organic, grass fed Aberdeen Angus-Charlerois steak burgers and go and get your rice cake and vitamin pill.

You might scoff, but that is what you are saying. That poor children and poor people don't deserve it. Have a look at the mortality rates of women and children in those places. See whether it's actually better than everybody nearby with access to meat, fish, dairy and vegetables as well as a few beans and rice.

There is a charity called Compassion in World Farming that has good information about this stuff

I've found their data analysis very flawed in the past actually. I did a breakdown of this on a similar thread a while ago.

I never take stats at face value, I always check the source and the data and the results are often very different to what is being claimed.

I also don't agree that organic is the best marker of welfare. Organic just relates to what they can be fed and how they are treated with medications.

@40andginger

Mitzik

It's sound alike it doesn't work for you but I'm sure you will agree there are plenty of healthy plant based people out there!

I am not a Dr and I don't know your diet choices when you were veg /vegan and how long for or your medical history that may impact your health

But I do hope your health improves

Can any longterm vegans come on here and tell us how healthy they are?
I have only been plant based for a little under 2 years but I do feel great

Thanks for the kind words. I'm hoping the results aren't as bad as the signs suggest they're going to be.

Dietary consequences take a long time to show up. We don't have anywhere near so many older people with osteoporosis now - this coincides with them now being the generation that had access to meat, fish, dairy and eggs from rationing, Cod Liver Oil for Vitamins A&D, greater affluence that meant more would travel overseas, it was desirable to get a tan, eating a wide range of foods - including grains and pulses, yes - and having access to cheaper, frozen foods of animal origin.

Moving away from foods that are high in readily bioavailable vitamin D means that children who aren't allowed to go out in the sun all the time (because the previous generation that did also started developing skin cancer) began developing Rickets.

Increases in consumption of carb based shite and high calorific density foods began showing up as increased incidence of obesity and T2 Diabetes at younger ages.

Anybody who has a vested interest in promoting their own particular lifestyle and ethical choices is likely to say that they are absolutely in the peak of health and look at that remarkable athlete, one in 50 million in terms of ability - look, they're fine being Vegan (for example). Fact is, maybe part of the being better than 50 million other people is that they can function and thrive on a Vegan diet where most wouldn't. And a lot of top end athletes aren't actually that healthy in the long term - osteoporosis in runners, arthritis, cardiac issues, Parkinsons, etc.

You're specifically requesting a self selecting sample to confirm your current beliefs. Which can't prove anything. If you asked for longterm anorexics to come along and tell us how healthy they are because you've only been restricting for six months/a year/18 months, a lot of them will tell you that they're absolutely fine. If you asked for longterm junk food fans or overeaters to come along and say they're fine, you'll find them. Even on mumsnet - the 'I eat ten million calories a day, all the cake and I never go a smidge over 7 stone' people are in abundance.

I can't and won't claim that eating animal products is only ever healthy. Because a diet of no veg, no fibre, no vitamin C, no vitamin K, high fat, high carb, high salt, low nutrient isn't. I did shit on not eating animal products, though, despite loving the 'good' things like vegetables and pulses rather than the processed imitations that are around now and having a longstanding interest in nutrition and physiology.

@MaxNormal everything but the squeak!

Mitzik

I was trying to show that your story is just that! and not all vegans will end up with bone problems

My mother my grandmother and my mil all have osteoarthritis none of them are vegan

People have to find what works for them but not at the cost of how animals are treated! I've said before it's everyone's choice what they decide to put into their bodies but if people refused to eat the shit cheap meat etc the industry would have to listen
There are reason and excuses that people come up with
But we don't have to eat meat every day! We don't have to eat out at restaurants where we don't know where the meat is sourced
We don't have to accept this as a way of life
We can be kinder and help the planet at thw same time be healthier (not by going vegan but by eating better quality meat)

I am glad I'm plant based and im happy I'm meeting my families nutritional needs because it's one thing I have looked into alot especially with my DD

I agree athlete's health can be problematic especially when they work their bodies so hard but at least they don't have to do it until retirement age!

People taking responsibility for their own diets doesn't seem to work tho if you look at how obese and unhealthy we are as a nation! We can however help ourselves if other people want to eat crap and get fat that's their life

I highly recommend Morrisons for anyone wanting cheaper or more unusual cuts of good quality British meat.

I'm just about to chuck this in the pot to make a lovely massaman curry for later.

There is nothing hypocritical about wanting animals which will be eaten after they are dead to live a comfortable life while they are alive.

^This. We only ever eat free range/organic. However, we're fortunate in that we can afford to do that. I wouldn't judge other people who can't afford this, especially if they have children to bring up.

The issue is that there shouldn't be any animal cruelty involved in farming, that's the actual issue here.

It’s the vilification of those who buy cheap meat I don’t get.

Genuinely, I bought a cheap chicken and maybe some sausages or a packet of mince.

I had to feed my family and like it or not those are comforting meals. Grinding lasting poverty is depressing and wears you down. It’s nice to have comfort food like a roast chicken or sausages and mash now and again.

I didn’t waste anything. I still feel guilty if I throw out chicken bones and don’t make soup.

I could write recipe book of 101 ways to stretch your budget or 101 meals with mince.

I didn’t buy ready meals. I didn’t eat out. Many many meals (the vast majority) were veggie.

if I did roast chicken dinner with veggies and Yorkshire’s (to fill them up more) I got clean plates and everyone was full up.

If I did french toast or boiled eggs and soldiers it was a cheap meal. But even it isn’t good enough for some here because it isn’t vegan.

I worked. Part time. I went to Uni. Full time. I had a long commute to both (because you have to be prepared to travel 90 mins each way for work). I wanted cheap easy stuff I could bing in the slow cooker and make us something filling when I came in.

There are welfare standards in this country. The farm had its certification removed.

The vast vast majority of farmers care about the welfare of their animals. Yes, there are a few who don’t, but there are bad apples in every profession.

I can’t stand being told to go and source Oat milk which I wouldn’t have been sure my kids would drink. I couldn’t have afforded to put £2 a day down the drain at that point in my life.

Check your privilege. 🤷‍♀️ And I expect to get slated. Again. But meh.

We really throw these animals under the bus. At least peoples views are moving more towards compassion and sustainability. Wont see it in my lifetime though.