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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder if you know that the meat you buy could have been raised in a factory farm...

625 replies

MsWonderful · 26/08/2020 19:01

And that the animals could also have been subjected to horrific cruelty even if the farm is Red Tractor approved?
www.daventry.radio/daventry-farm-suspended-from-red-tractor-scheme-amid-animal-welfare-concerns/

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
Ihaventgottimeforthis · 30/08/2020 21:57

The ethical argument around whether its ok for humans to kill & eat animals is more black-and-white than the debate over environmental impact & sustainability, that's very true.
I too would like everyone to be more invested in how their food is produced, especially meat, and to buy less, higher quality meat & dairy.
But I am ok with the principle of killing animals for food.

MoiraRosesTransAtlanticDrawl · 30/08/2020 22:04

Fair enough, but I don't think the word principles belongs in a sentence about killing animals. We can agree to disagree

London1066 · 30/08/2020 22:09

The meat, dairy and egg industry is horrific. No animal wants to die, regardless of whether it's had a good life'. There is no such thing as killing an animal humanely and these 'welfare standards' mean nothing to the animals. They still die a painful death which is totally unnecessary.

We breed millions of animals in to existence every year just to kill them. We give over 80% of all grain grown to animals for feed and if we fed this to humans, nobody would be hungry. There is plenty to feed the whole world a plant based diet.

Deforestation is primarily caused by animal agriculture. Animals are pumped full of hormones to make them fat as quickly as possible and keep them just well enough to slaughter. We are then consuming these as a biproduct of meat.

Our bodies are not designed to eat meat. Our intestines are for plants. I find it hilarious that some meat eaters will reference our 'canines' and talk about the 'food chain/circle of life' when I'd love to see said meat eater catch, kill and eat prey for themselves. Instead, we go to the supermarket and purchase bleached meat packaged in plastic for us after they have been killed by someone else, using tools the animal has no chance against. We talk about dogs being left in hot cars for 10 minutes at the supermarket but don't bat an eye over animals spending days and WEEKS in lorries and boats, covered in their own waste and without food or water - travelling to the slaughterhouse. Pigs are far more intelligent than dogs and have equal intelligence to a 3 year old human child. By nobody gives a damn about that because, bacon.

The dairy industry is the worst. They separate cows and calves (sometimes while still covered in amniotic fluid); just so we can consume the breast milk that isn't even meant for us. The cows cries out for days and is distraught after carrying her baby for 9 months. The male calves are either raised in an isolation pen for 8 weeks and then sold for veal or killed immediately as they are no use to the dairy farmer because they can't make milk. The female calves are driven in to the same slavery and exploitation their mother has endured. When they can't produce milk anymore and/or are so emotionally traumatised and battered they can barely stand, they are lifted by cranes and taken to the slaughterhouse (they're called 'downers'). The dairy industry IS the beef industry. We all celebrate breast feeding and the bond that is so important for mothers feeding their child (breast or bottle), yet we're literally ripping apart a mother and baby (who are sentient and have a strong bond) so we can put breast milk in our cereal and coffee. It's weird.

The World Health Organisation have said that processed meat (including bacon and sausages) is a carcinogen. Like, literally causes cancer. Yet some people eat it like it's going out of fashion, even knowing this.

I would recommend the following videos/programmes/pages for anyone curious to learn more:

DAIRY
Youtube: Dairy is Scary (5 minutes)

Insta/Facebook
Earthling Ed

NETFLIX
Game Changers: the health and exercise impact of eating meat, dairy and eggs

Cowspiracy: the environmental impact of beef farming and consumption

The Land of Hope & Glory

What the Health: health impact from specialists

Ihaventgottimeforthis · 30/08/2020 22:40

Yes I found it difficult to choose between ethics/morals/principles. Is it fair to say we have a different moral stance on the killing of animals, that gives it proper significance.

London thanks for your contribution, I'm guessing you haven't read the thread thus far...

London1066 · 30/08/2020 22:43

@Ihaventgottimeforthis

Yes I found it difficult to choose between ethics/morals/principles. Is it fair to say we have a different moral stance on the killing of animals, that gives it proper significance.

London thanks for your contribution, I'm guessing you haven't read the thread thus far...

I did read the thread :) I was just echoing what some others said and some of my own thoughts.
London1066 · 30/08/2020 22:51

@Ellamiss

Shame the animals don’t get a choice though *@SistineScreamer*
Exactly this. The animals are FORCED in to the slaughterhouse and don't want to die. They would choose to live if they could
Ihaventgottimeforthis · 30/08/2020 22:55

Ah ok, you'll have seen the counter arguments then so I won't worry if I don't repeat myself.

London1066 · 30/08/2020 23:01

@Ihaventgottimeforthis

Ah ok, you'll have seen the counter arguments then so I won't worry if I don't repeat myself.
I did indeed. About farmers caring about their animals and members of the community seeing animals in the fields near their homes and 'local' and organic farms. Every farm is local to someone. Even the factory ones. Personal choice and low incomes and butchers meat.

Honestly, in any other context of unnecessary cruelty, people might hear how ridiculous they all sound.

Ihaventgottimeforthis · 30/08/2020 23:08

😄

GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman · 30/08/2020 23:09

Our bodies are not designed to eat meat.
Tell that to every single hunter-gatherer society on the face of the planet. There are no vegan 'stone age tribes'. Meat is critical to their health and wellbeing.

Baaaahhhhh · 30/08/2020 23:11

The thing is, most farming in the UK is nothing like that described by London1066, or the many videos available on YouTube. Try watching any of the numerous farming programmes on TV. Whether you watch stuff on YouTube or BBC, you could say they all have an agenda, but honestly, if you want to eat meat, you can't do much better than UK produced in terms of animal husbandry and welfare.

Scrowy · 30/08/2020 23:14

The meat, dairy and egg industry is horrific

Some of it is, some of it isn't.

No animal wants to die, regardless of whether it's had a good life'.

You are applying human emotions to animals. Animals have no concept of relative deprivation or whether they have had a good life. If they aren't stressed or in pain they are pretty much happy.

There is no such thing as killing an animal humanely and these 'welfare standards' mean nothing to the animals. They still die a painful death which is totally unnecessary.

Yes you can kill an animal humanely and painlessly. Don't be ridiculous.

We breed millions of animals in to existence every year just to kill them

And it a our duty to give them a good life while they are here.

We give over 80% of all grain grown to animals for feed and if we fed this to humans, nobody would be hungry. There is plenty to feed the whole world a plant based diet.

Only if you MASSIVELY oversimplify how it works and assume all land is capable of growing grains (spoiler, it's not). Also, where's all the cow and chicken shit that's currently used to put nutrients back into the soil going to come from?

Deforestation is primarily caused by animal agriculture In some places. Not everywhere.

Animals are pumped full of hormones to make them fat as quickly as possible and keep them just well enough to slaughter. We are then consuming these as a biproduct of meat.

Not if you are in the UK you aren't. So either, you are knowingly misrepresenting the bad practices of some food production practices somewhere in the world and applying them to a UK based discussion, or you are in apple of fact checking and critical thinking and have simply believed all the anti-farming propaganda without doing any due diligence for yourself.

Our bodies are not designed to eat meat. Our intestines are for plants. I find it hilarious that some meat eaters will reference our 'canines' and talk about the 'food chain/circle of life' when I'd love to see said meat eater catch, kill and eat prey for themselves.

You know you are talking absolute crap here right? What's catching it yourself got to do with anything other than prove that early hunter gatherers literally progressed and evolved due to eating meat.

Instead, we go to the supermarket and purchase bleached meat packaged in plastic

That's awful. People really should try their local butchers instead.

after they have been killed by someone else, using tools the animal has no chance against

It's not a fight to the death. Can't even formulate a further response to this that doesn't involve references to opposable thumbs.

We talk about dogs being left in hot cars for 10 minutes at the supermarket but don't bat an eye over animals spending days and WEEKS in lorries and boats, covered in their own waste and without food or water - travelling to the slaughterhouse

Think about this, what kind of state do you think an animal left in these conditions for 'days, or weeks' would be in? It wouldn't be fit to eat. Why would anyone do that? It literally doesn't make sense.

I start getting upset if I know our fat lambs are going to be on a lorry for more than an hour or so.

Pigs are far more intelligent than dogs and have equal intelligence to a 3 year old human child. By nobody gives a damn about that because, bacon

Having kept both pigs and 3 year olds in the past, I disagree.

The dairy industry is the worst. They separate cows and calves (sometimes while still covered in amniotic fluid); just so we can consume the breast milk that isn't even meant for us.

Cows don't have breasts. They aren't chickens. Or humans.

The cows cries out for days and is distraught after carrying her baby for 9 months. Cows don't cry. Some might bellow for a bit, but also some don't.

The male calves are either raised in an isolation pen for 8 weeks

Here is an RSPCA fact sheet about calf hutches

www.rspca.org.uk/documents/1494939/7712578/Calf+hutches+v3.pdf/6f427dfa-465c-6b80-02f1-8855ea4997cb?t=1553271693737&download=true

For anyone that can't be bothered to read it, calves are kept in individual pens when they are really little to prevent the spreading of disease and stress. They must have contact with other calves the same age and at 8 weeks max they are moved into group pens.

and then sold for veal or killed immediately as they are no use to the dairy farmer because they can't make milk.

Your information is out of date. There's actually quite a healthy market for male dairy bullocks as meat. They are lean and increasing wanted by supermarkets for lean frying steaks etc.

The female calves are driven in to the same slavery and exploitation their mother has endured. When they can't produce milk anymore and/or are so emotionally traumatised and battered they can barely stand, they are lifted by cranes and taken to the slaughterhouse (they're called 'downers').

'Emotionally traumatised'. Hmm

Yes downer cows is a thing. Doesn't mean what you think it does though and the vast majority of dairy cows don't end up that way. It's a system for humane culling unwell cattle on the farm.

The dairy industry IS the beef industry.

Yes. The two are intertwined.

We all celebrate breast feeding and the bond that is so important for mothers feeding their child (breast or bottle), yet we're literally ripping apart a mother and baby (who are sentient and have a strong bond) so we can put breast milk in our cereal and coffee. It's weird.

Cows don't have breasts.

The World Health Organisation have said that processed meat (including bacon and sausages) is a carcinogen.

Isn't that to do with the processing, nitrates added etc rather than the meat itself?

London1066 · 30/08/2020 23:29

@Scrowy

The meat, dairy and egg industry is horrific

Some of it is, some of it isn't.

No animal wants to die, regardless of whether it's had a good life'.

You are applying human emotions to animals. Animals have no concept of relative deprivation or whether they have had a good life. If they aren't stressed or in pain they are pretty much happy.

There is no such thing as killing an animal humanely and these 'welfare standards' mean nothing to the animals. They still die a painful death which is totally unnecessary.

Yes you can kill an animal humanely and painlessly. Don't be ridiculous.

We breed millions of animals in to existence every year just to kill them

And it a our duty to give them a good life while they are here.

We give over 80% of all grain grown to animals for feed and if we fed this to humans, nobody would be hungry. There is plenty to feed the whole world a plant based diet.

Only if you MASSIVELY oversimplify how it works and assume all land is capable of growing grains (spoiler, it's not). Also, where's all the cow and chicken shit that's currently used to put nutrients back into the soil going to come from?

Deforestation is primarily caused by animal agriculture In some places. Not everywhere.

Animals are pumped full of hormones to make them fat as quickly as possible and keep them just well enough to slaughter. We are then consuming these as a biproduct of meat.

Not if you are in the UK you aren't. So either, you are knowingly misrepresenting the bad practices of some food production practices somewhere in the world and applying them to a UK based discussion, or you are in apple of fact checking and critical thinking and have simply believed all the anti-farming propaganda without doing any due diligence for yourself.

Our bodies are not designed to eat meat. Our intestines are for plants. I find it hilarious that some meat eaters will reference our 'canines' and talk about the 'food chain/circle of life' when I'd love to see said meat eater catch, kill and eat prey for themselves.

You know you are talking absolute crap here right? What's catching it yourself got to do with anything other than prove that early hunter gatherers literally progressed and evolved due to eating meat.

Instead, we go to the supermarket and purchase bleached meat packaged in plastic

That's awful. People really should try their local butchers instead.

after they have been killed by someone else, using tools the animal has no chance against

It's not a fight to the death. Can't even formulate a further response to this that doesn't involve references to opposable thumbs.

We talk about dogs being left in hot cars for 10 minutes at the supermarket but don't bat an eye over animals spending days and WEEKS in lorries and boats, covered in their own waste and without food or water - travelling to the slaughterhouse

Think about this, what kind of state do you think an animal left in these conditions for 'days, or weeks' would be in? It wouldn't be fit to eat. Why would anyone do that? It literally doesn't make sense.

I start getting upset if I know our fat lambs are going to be on a lorry for more than an hour or so.

Pigs are far more intelligent than dogs and have equal intelligence to a 3 year old human child. By nobody gives a damn about that because, bacon

Having kept both pigs and 3 year olds in the past, I disagree.

The dairy industry is the worst. They separate cows and calves (sometimes while still covered in amniotic fluid); just so we can consume the breast milk that isn't even meant for us.

Cows don't have breasts. They aren't chickens. Or humans.

The cows cries out for days and is distraught after carrying her baby for 9 months. Cows don't cry. Some might bellow for a bit, but also some don't.

The male calves are either raised in an isolation pen for 8 weeks

Here is an RSPCA fact sheet about calf hutches

www.rspca.org.uk/documents/1494939/7712578/Calf+hutches+v3.pdf/6f427dfa-465c-6b80-02f1-8855ea4997cb?t=1553271693737&download=true

For anyone that can't be bothered to read it, calves are kept in individual pens when they are really little to prevent the spreading of disease and stress. They must have contact with other calves the same age and at 8 weeks max they are moved into group pens.

and then sold for veal or killed immediately as they are no use to the dairy farmer because they can't make milk.

Your information is out of date. There's actually quite a healthy market for male dairy bullocks as meat. They are lean and increasing wanted by supermarkets for lean frying steaks etc.

The female calves are driven in to the same slavery and exploitation their mother has endured. When they can't produce milk anymore and/or are so emotionally traumatised and battered they can barely stand, they are lifted by cranes and taken to the slaughterhouse (they're called 'downers').

'Emotionally traumatised'. Hmm

Yes downer cows is a thing. Doesn't mean what you think it does though and the vast majority of dairy cows don't end up that way. It's a system for humane culling unwell cattle on the farm.

The dairy industry IS the beef industry.

Yes. The two are intertwined.

We all celebrate breast feeding and the bond that is so important for mothers feeding their child (breast or bottle), yet we're literally ripping apart a mother and baby (who are sentient and have a strong bond) so we can put breast milk in our cereal and coffee. It's weird.

Cows don't have breasts.

The World Health Organisation have said that processed meat (including bacon and sausages) is a carcinogen.

Isn't that to do with the processing, nitrates added etc rather than the meat itself?

Honestly, your responses are so far from the points I'm making. The cow 'cries out' being corrected to 'bellow' and I'm being advised cows can't cry. This is not even a point. The cow 'bellows' our for their child that has been taken from them for no good reasons it's cruel and totally unnecessary. Breasts or udders. Whatever. It's still calf growth hormone and is not for humans. It's for baby cows. The fact that anyone defends this is ludicrous.

My research supported points are aimed at consumers who are considering reducing amid stopping their intake of animal products. I have done plenty of research and for over 3 decades of my life, I ate meat, dairy and eggs. I changed my habits BECAUSE of research and information. I loved eating eggs and meat. It's not because we don't like the taste of it. It's because it's cruel, unnecessary, unhealthy and destroying our planet.

It's not aimed at farmers as they have their financial interests to protect (and will cite tradition and all the rest) so it's inconvenient to be sharing what really goes on. Aside from the boats (mostly sheep and goats), all of my other points are about UK farms.

Just because we can do something, doesn't mean we should. What if we applied that same logic to murders, rapes, war crimes etc. People seem to think it's different because animals don't communicate with us in a way we understand. It's so inconceivably arrogant to think that we as humans are superior and should dictate what happens to other sentient beings just because we want a burger.

Just because things were done in the past, doesn't mean it's ok now. When we know better, we should try to do better.

The whole point of veganism is that the life of an animal of worth more than a sandwich. That's it. That's literally the bottom line. If you can't see that, there's nothing more I can say.

MoiraRosesTransAtlanticDrawl · 30/08/2020 23:30

Animals are sentient. They may not understand a Shakespearean sonnet but they do not deserve what we put them through.

London1066 · 30/08/2020 23:32

@GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman

Our bodies are not designed to eat meat. Tell that to every single hunter-gatherer society on the face of the planet. There are no vegan 'stone age tribes'. Meat is critical to their health and wellbeing.

That's true. But having an Aldi at the end of your streets where you buy a chilled and prepared chicken can hardly put you in the same category as indigenous tribes.

You can't be serious?

London1066 · 30/08/2020 23:36

@Baaaahhhhh

The thing is, most farming in the UK is nothing like that described by London1066, or the many videos available on YouTube. Try watching any of the numerous farming programmes on TV. Whether you watch stuff on YouTube or BBC, you could say they all have an agenda, but honestly, if you want to eat meat, you can't do much better than UK produced in terms of animal husbandry and welfare.

This just isn't true. The majority of farms in the UK are mass producing meat and factory farming. They're exactly what I'm describing. Any meat in the supermarket (which is what most people buy) falls directly in to these categories.

It baffles me that vegans are seen as extreme and overbearing when the whole purpose of the movement is to be kind to animals.

There's no other agenda here.

Scrowy · 30/08/2020 23:38

Aside from the boats (mostly sheep and goats), all of my other points are about UK farms

So what growth hormones are animals being pumped full of in the UK then?

Where in the UK is being deforested to make way for agriculture (the exact opposite is actually happening?)

How much grain grown in the UK is just fed to animals.

The problem with your 'research' is that you are only looking at biased sources that validate the point you are trying to make. That's not research it's just googling.

MaxNormal · 30/08/2020 23:39

That's true. But having an Aldi at the end of your streets where you buy a chilled and prepared chicken can hardly put you in the same category as indigenous tribes.

We have the same physiology as hunter gatherer tribes and you've just agreed they need meat so...

No, UK farming is nothing like your very emotive description of the worst excesses of US agri-business.

MoiraRosesTransAtlanticDrawl · 30/08/2020 23:39

Any slaughter house is fucking horrific,the conditions the animals live in are awful. Even in UK. The broiler barns, pig barns etc I have been in many. Few animals have the luxury of feeling grass at their feet. How much livestock do you really see whilst driving through the countryside? They are all hidden from sight, believe me.
How anyone can defend this industry is beyond me. But then you profit from it, don't you? Money talks where the animals fortunately for you, can't.

MsEllany · 30/08/2020 23:40

There will always be arseholes who use their power to abuse ‘lesser’ beings - animals, children, elderly adults, disabled people. Just look at the scandals about care homes. I suspect care home workers are paid less than farm workers.

Scrowy · 30/08/2020 23:40

This just isn't true. The majority of farms in the UK are mass producing meat and factory farming

Now you are just making yourself look utterly stupid. Do you really believe that? I have the stats to prove you are wrong, but I think it would be a more enlightening exercise for you to try and find the stats to prove you are right... go ahead. I'll wait, I've got a cow calving.

MoiraRosesTransAtlanticDrawl · 30/08/2020 23:42

Yes, there is too much abuse is care homes, as much hidden footage has shown. But you wouldn't see post after post of people defending it like they do for the meat/dairy industry.

Scrowy · 30/08/2020 23:43

The broiler barns, pig barns etc I have been in many

In what capacity?

Few animals have the luxury of feeling grass at their feet. How much livestock do you really see whilst driving through the countryside? They are all hidden from sight, believe me

Ahhh we are back to the display animals in fields whole all the real animals are hidden in cages round the back theory are we? Crack on with that, doesn't sound unhinged in the slightest. Grin

MaxNormal · 30/08/2020 23:43

How much livestock do you really see whilst driving through the countryside? They are all hidden from sight, believe me.

Are you serious? Grin I live in Scotland. There's sheep as far as the eye can see. Are there more that are being mysteriously hidden somewhere?

MoiraRosesTransAtlanticDrawl · 30/08/2020 23:46

Not in East Anglia their not.

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