To wonder if you know that the meat you buy could have been raised in a factory farm...

[MsWonderful]

And that the animals could also have been subjected to horrific cruelty even if the farm is Red Tractor approved?
www.daventry.radio/daventry-farm-suspended-from-red-tractor-scheme-amid-animal-welfare-concerns/

I can't speak for East Anglia. I did pass some very nice free range pig farms in the Cotswolds recently. Could see the actual pigs and everything

Presumably East Anglia lends itself to crop farming? I suggest that explains the absence of livestock rather than a dire conspiracy.

West Scotland is all peat bogs. Sheep is about all you can do with it.

@Scrowy

Aside from the boats (mostly sheep and goats), all of my other points are about UK farms

So what growth hormones are animals being pumped full of in the UK then?

Where in the UK is being deforested to make way for agriculture (the exact opposite is actually happening?)

How much grain grown in the UK is just fed to animals.

The problem with your 'research' is that you are only looking at biased sources that validate the point you are trying to make. That's not research it's just googling.

Meat that people are buying in the shops is not all from the UK. Although there is a ban on hormone treated beef in the UK, that's not always what people are buying. Much of the UK's supermarket meat is imported.

UK farms feed their livestock with grain from other countries. There is not enough land in the UK to grow all of the grain needed to feed livestock. It would require the total destruction of entire cities.

If you spent some time watching some of the documentaries I suggested in a preview post, they direct you to various forms of research from highly regarded and impartial sources. That's instead of the animal agriculture business and other sources who have cleverly hidden funding arrangements which disguise the true bias of information available to the general public without a great deal of digging.

Animal agriculture is big business and farmers certainly don't want any of their taxpayer subsidies cut. Animals are raised for profit, not because farmers care for a second about their wellbeing. It's laughable

I don't know whether to cry with laughter or frustration.

East Anglia. Renowned for its vast arable crops, as far as the eye can see.

So, your experience of farming is what you can google on the internet and the big fields you can see out of your window then?

@MaxNormal

That's true. But having an Aldi at the end of your streets where you buy a chilled and prepared chicken can hardly put you in the same category as indigenous tribes.

We have the same physiology as hunter gatherer tribes and you've just agreed they need meat so...

No, UK farming is nothing like your very emotive description of the worst excesses of US agri-business.

I didn't agree. I responded to the point of telling that to the gatherer tribes' who don't have an Aldi and therefore are unlikely to have lentils and beans available on their doorstep. They eat what's on their doorstep. They also hunt, kill and prepare what they eat. We don't

We are covered in industrial sized barns full of pigs,layers and broilers. There are four huge farms surrounding the village I live in.

@Scrowy

This just isn't true. The majority of farms in the UK are mass producing meat and factory farming

Now you are just making yourself look utterly stupid. Do you really believe that? I have the stats to prove you are wrong, but I think it would be a more enlightening exercise for you to try and find the stats to prove you are right... go ahead. I'll wait, I've got a cow calving.

Of course you do. It's obvious you're a farmer

Meat that people are buying in the shops is not all from the UK. Although there is a ban on hormone treated beef in the UK, that's not always what people are buying. Much of the UK's supermarket meat is imported.

you cannot buy hormone treated beef in the UK, regardless of its origin. The imported beef is mostly imported from Ireland.

UK farms feed their livestock with grain from other countries. There is not enough land in the UK to grow all of the grain needed to feed livestock. It would require the total destruction of entire cities.

Actually UK farms feed their livestock with mostly grass and silage. We don't need to feed our livestock grains because we are capable of growing enough grass to feed them through summer and winter. I'm starting to think you are just making this stuff up off the top of your head. Did you even bother to google what cows in the uk are fed?

If you spent some time watching some of the documentaries I suggested in a preview post, they direct you to various forms of research from highly regarded and impartial sources. That's instead of the animal agriculture business and other sources who have cleverly hidden funding arrangements which disguise the true bias of information available to the general public without a great deal of digging

Follow the money. Most of the funding for the documentaries you think are so great comes from people who have an interest in selling soy/ vegan products. Not impartial. Two can play that game.

Animal agriculture is big business and farmers certainly don't want any of their taxpayer subsidies cut. Animals are raised for profit, not because farmers care for a second about their wellbeing

Apparently most farmers voted in 2016 knowing full well a Brexit vote would mean the end of subsidies...

Feel free to explain to any sheep farmer where their profit is coming from as I'm sure they would dearly love to know. Most break about even by not paying themselves a wage.

London1066 speak for yourself. I've eaten plenty a chicken I saw live earlier that day.

Hormone fed meat is not legal in the EU, including imports. Admittedly, this may change next year after Brexit but for now you couldn't buy hormone fed beef here even if you wanted to.

@MoiraRosesTransAtlanticDrawl

We are covered in industrial sized barns full of pigs,layers and broilers. There are four huge farms surrounding the village I live in.

and I asked in what capacity have you been in them?

Most of the funding for the documentaries you think are so great comes from people who have an interest in selling soy/ vegan products.

Yes, pea protein in the ccase of Game Changers.

Now you are just making yourself look utterly stupid. Do you really believe that? I have the stats to prove you are wrong, but I think it would be a more enlightening exercise for you to try and find the stats to prove you are right... go ahead. I'll wait, I've got a cow calving

Of course you do. It's obvious you're a farmer

Well yes, I think I've been quite open about that.

How you getting on with those stats?

www.dominionmovement.com/watch

I can barely hide my disdain for my family members who own farms here and in Ireland. So I have seen far more than I ever wanted to. But I've seen it with my own eyes. I would never fund this industry. Or defend it.

I can barely hide my disdain for my family members who own farms here and in Ireland. So I have seen far more than I ever wanted to. But I've seen it with my own eyes. I would never fund this industry. Or defend it.

For someone who claims to come from a vast farming family you don't half get muddled sometimes about the facts.

I'm sorry I just don't believe you when all you do is post links to extreme, biased and heavily edited vegan propaganda film and make vague statements about seeing more than you would ever want to.

drink their booby milk

human or cow, what a cringe worthy statement

Bottom line is tho that it is milk for a calf not for human consumption
Its not? Then why do i see shelves of it at work, sell crates of it in a night? Seems humans LOVE cows milk and most dont have issues with it

I can vouch for my upbringing unfortunately.
It's easy to pick apart links and find factual inaccuracies granted. But I wholeheartedly think profiting off the back of an animal is nothing to be proud of. The animals are killed regardless, and you profit from it. Well done.

I think the issue is more about where the meat has come from. The Uk have much higher welfare standards than other countries so if you are buying red tractor then they will have to adhere to set standards. Not all animals want to live outside all year round in the wet and cold and actually dry, straw filled sheds are not awful places for animals to be.

And I did not say every vitamin I said almost! No, you said almost every nutrient which implies all the nourishment a human could need... one pill = almost all of the compounds in foods essential to life and health all the energy, building blocks for repair and growth and substances necessary to regulate chemical processes.

Which is why I suggested I Soylent Green!

But I wholeheartedly think profiting off the back of an animal is nothing to be proud of. The animals are killed regardless, and you profit from it. Well done. And nobody would deny you the right to think that and to act upn it for yourself

But you might have to accept that your proselitising doesn't work... maybe the tone of voice, hectoring attitude, general aggressive, holier than thou turn of phrase with added, emotional blackmail is something to do with it!

I live in East Anglia.
I have beef farmer friends literally up the road.
I walk past fields of sheep when walking the dogs.
When MIL was alive we used to drive through acres of free range pigs to visit her.
I go dog training past fields of lovely sleek red pill cattle.

Sure, there are some big agri-sheds, but you must have your eyes shut not to see the critters out and about in the open air.

I need some breakfast to sustain me for the rest...

@m4d0

I think the issue is more about where the meat has come from. The Uk have much higher welfare standards than other countries so if you are buying red tractor then they will have to adhere to set standards. Not all animals want to live outside all year round in the wet and cold and actually dry, straw filled sheds are not awful places for animals to be.

This thread was started with a post about abuse in a Red Tractor certifies farm being uncovered - not by RT, and that farm subsequently having its certification removed because RT agreed that the abuse was real and unacceptable. But that farm passed its inspections, which makes me - as a consumer - doubtful as to how reliable RT are if I care about farm animals welfare.

@Fatted

Well most meat I eat has existed solely in the first place purely to be eaten, has then been killed, cooked and eaten. It's a bit hypocritical to then get uppity about how said animal has been treated prior to ending up on my plate.

For the posters arguing that humans are not omnivores - this is a very interesting read written by a vegan biologist www.google.co.uk/amp/s/veganbiologist.com/2016/01/04/humans-are-not-herbivores/amp/

TLDR: humans are undeniably omnivores, but just because we can doesn't mean we have to.

I think this is where people are arguing as the red tractor scheme obviously isn't working in this case.
The UK standards may be higher but its not always adhered to especially when imported meats are used because its harder to enforce the UK regulations!
Mislabelled products! Horsemeat! BSE
And also there are alot of industrial sized farms in the UK alot more than I thought! Especially for chicken which we all know broiler chickens lives are shit

So no not all farm practices are good in fact if these industrial sized farms are feeding the majority of the UK and not the nice small farms which we pass when driving through the countryside (which are clearly the minority) then I highly doubt the standards are anywhere as good as the local farm shop either!
I get that people enjoy eating meat and some make their living out of it that's not the issue! This post is about the welfare of the animals
There has been way too much undercover filming in these places to be one offs! There is a problem!
You can call people stupid or ignorant but unless you work for an agency who checked the standards of these places or in one of these intensive farms then you can't comment on other people's sources

Calling it vegan propaganda! That's what the dairy and meat industry has been doing for years!

Bottom line is the standards have to be adhered to and work and not fail same with anything! Because it happens in all industries of course

Curious are YOU offended by a group of people who don't want to abuse animals,? I'm happy to discuss it all day long. I have learnt a lot from this thread.