To expect graduate to get a job whilst applying for ‘the perfect’ job?

[Rosehip345]

Please settle a disagreement between myself and my brother.

DN back from uni having graduated and done well in chosen (and fairly select and over subscribed) field.
Her plan with DB’s approval is to live at home for a year whilst applying for jobs, so far she has had three interviews and not got any.
They both disagree with me that she should get any job or an internship etc in the interim whilst continuing to apply for ‘the perfect job’.

My kids are very young so I don’t have any experience of this yet but I’d imagine I’d be telling them to get some life experience and more relevant experience around the subject whilst still applying, surely that’d make them seem more appealing than just staying at home doing nothing for year?

I don't think it is any of your business.

There’s just not enough work around to “pick up” any low paid extra job at the moment. The competition for low paid work in London is huge.

YABU
This is quite typical of an old school mentality, which is there is only one way to do things .

It’s pretty hard just to find ‘any job ‘I applied for 100s when I graduated and had no success.

Also, sometimes you get stuck in low paid work, that looks even worse on your cv. Of course it will be easier to use examples from menial type work but if I’m honest , I wouldn't say they would be impressive .

If I were hiring ( with the benefit of knowing how how it is for young people ) I wouldn’t hold a period of unemployment against a candidate. So many assumptions are made from people that had it much easier than how young people have it today .

I have no intention of ‘controlling’ what she or he do, in fact I don’t even intend on trying to influence the decision. Or in fact even having another conversation about it.
They asked my opinion so I gave it. That’s all.
I wrote this post as I was intrigued to others opinions and what advice others would give.

And for those still saying their decision is none of my business I KNOW!!!!

I wrote this post as I was intrigued to others opinions and what advice others would give

There are too many variables to give meaningful advice though - it totally depends on the actual situation and the people involved. If you were asking about your own DC, people could help you probe the relevant issues, explore your DC's perspective and plan a course of action.

But in this case, it's necessary to make several assumptions (as you don't actually know the ins and out of their relationship) which render any opinion based on those assumptions pretty useless.

Of course she should get any job. She's graduated. I worked part-time throughout my degree, then started a full-time (fairly dead-end) job the day after my first exam. I didn't have a realistic option to move back in with my parents and even if I had, I'd have been required to work to pay my way.

To the argument that low-paid work looks worse on your CV than gaps, I'd counter:
I used to put the job on my CV when I was young and didn't have much work experience. I played down most of it and highlighted the transferrable and valuable aspects of it (communication/client skills, attention to detail etc) but was able to drop it after a while when I got into the field I wanted to.

I think holding down any job shows willing/time management skills/a recognition that hard work is important.

My pal is Head of HR for a huge Multinational.
She once told me that with graduates, her first cull of CV's involved those without part time jobs.
She felt those that had jobs, had more experience of real life, even though they were newly qualified.

Despite being very well off, all of her children worked throughout their college years.
Great way to learn the value of money.

Sitting around waiting for the perfect job unfortunately sounds very precious.
I wouldn't be impressed.

For those talking about how difficult it is to get any job, I completely agree and would sympathise as a Hiring Manager; however in my view there’s a massive difference between “Due to the recession and COVID I found it challenging to find employment however I expanded my skills and knowledge by [Volunteering/Online course/Work experience]” and “I had zero intention of even trying to find a job and have sat on my arse being supported by mummy and daddy for a year”.

In fact, the current environment really just proves that you can’t just sit around waiting for the “perfect job”. I graduated at the height of the last recession and my first job was in a shop; my second was taking a risk on a temp role that at least was Science-related; then I moved on and bounced around jobs until I arrived where I am now. That temporary Science-related job was how I got into the career path I’m on now; and I wouldn’t have got that without the customer service skills I could prove from working in a shop. (Other industries may vary).

For all the people saying it’s madness to just get any job but you should hold out for the perfect job, would you agree that she should just not get a job if she had to go on UC to do so? If her parents kicked her out and she needed emergency accommodation and Jobseekers in order to survive? Would that be ok?

The reality of life is that we don’t all just get to do what we want all the time. If she was going to volunteer or use the time to do some short courses or something, so she could be the perfect applicant then ok... but it’s still not a level playing field against those who aren’t funded by rich parents in order to do that and so it is a good thing that employers recognise the value of work even if it is in an unrelated field. If she is fortunate enough to be in a funded position then I rather think she ought to use it wisely and be appreciative of it (I’m not saying she is or isn’t, the OP hasn’t said).

But if she just doesn’t want to do anything else and thinks that someone else just ought to fund her life while she’s waiting to be given her perfect job, that’s not how I’d want to bring up my children.

@billy1966

My pal is Head of HR for a huge Multinational. She once told me that with graduates, her first cull of CV's involved those without part time jobs. She felt those that had jobs, had more experience of real life, even though they were newly qualified.

Despite being very well off, all of her children worked throughout their college years.
Great way to learn the value of money.

Sitting around waiting for the perfect job unfortunately sounds very precious.
I wouldn't be impressed.

That just isn’t true. Nobody culls graduate CVs based on lack of irrelevant work experience. They cull because some grads have better relevant experience (think internships etc) or skills that the company wishes to use asap (eg fluent mandarin, russian, arabic, hindi or advanced SQL / Python can almost guarantee you an interview in some banking grad schemes even if you have a 2:1).

That just isn’t true.
You know that, do you?

I would, and I have. I’m a hiring manager...

@Grumpsy

I would, and I have. I’m a hiring manager...

@GrumpyHoonMain

To be honest if the niece has got to the age of 21 and never had any kind of job, it's not ideal. In my experience graduates who've never had to work are unable to cope with the challenge of jobs that inevitably turn out to be less than perfect. They also tend to feel that certain types of work are beneath them.
OP, since you are talking about helping your own children, the best thing you can do is encourage them to work from teenage years onwards, whether that is a paper round, babysitting, mowing someone's lawn, cleaning, helping an old person sort out their house, shop or cafe work, helping in a friend's family business, whatever. Those types of jobs are not much use on a graduate CV but they really do teach you so much.

@Nosuchluck

It's a tricky one I think, my DS who is just about to finish his Master's just got a 30 hour a week job at a local shop and will earn £1100 or so a month. My friend's D'S finished his Master's last summer and still hasn't got any sort of job but has had a few interviews for the type of graduate job he wants. I've got a feeling my friend's DS will get one of these jobs before my DS does.

Why do you think your friends Ds will get a job before your DS?

There’s just not enough work around to “pick up” any low paid extra job at the moment. The competition for low paid work in London is huge

www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/nearly-500-people-apply-two-pub-jobs-alexandra-wimbledon-a4502711.html

I think you're being unreasonable, mostly.
This year is somewhat exceptional and firms that for years have taken on graduates on graduate schemes, or interns have just shelved the programmes. There is very very little graduate work available as few firms are expanding, they're being cautious, and many firms have shed a lot of staff.

DD1 graduated this year and has been applying for jobs. There have not been many jobs in the area that she can apply for including HGV driving (3 in a 20 mile radius), and only 1 for which she was over-qualified but was in the field of her degree, she did not even get an interview for any of these (I think too young is the view on the driving despite almost 4y NCB).
There are no pub/restaurant jobs. No shop jobs, no event jobs, no cleaning jobs, and barely any care jobs (which she doesn't want to do as she is shopping for elderly grandparents).
Luckily she has picked up extra work schooling horses for people which covers her and the horses living costs, and some teaching - but she's done this throughout Uni to pay her way. She's picked up bits of tractor driving /harvest work by word of mouth as we're rural but otherwise actual jobs are very thin on the ground.
I agree a job would help your niece find another job but even part time there is truthfully so very little about and such competition to fill the posts that are advertised.
Her best bet would be volunteering if there's no jobs to apply for.

Tell them she needs to fulfil the ABCD of work:
Any job
Better job
Career
Dream job.

YANBU

As an ex employer in a very niche field. Anyone without work ( any type of work) experience, unless straight from school wouldn’t have got a look in. Graduate or otherwise, work ethic is very important to most employers. I was particularly impressed by candidates who had worked their way through university and still achieved a good degree. It suggests they have already got their ducks in a row with regard to organisational skills and priorities. Candidates who are still dependent on the bank of Mum and Dad may not have realised how to grow their own money tree yet.

That just isn’t true. Nobody culls graduate CVs based on lack of irrelevant work experience.

Of course they do. If you've got literally 100s of applications, you're looking for reasons not to interview. For most graduate roles, if you've got loads of applicants, you're bound to have plenty that can do the job, and you'll have a lot where the academic qualifications are the same. Whether or not they've held a previous job is a reasonable way of sorting them.
Obviously if you've got far fewer applications then you wouldn't.

@Grumpsy

I would, and I have. I’m a hiring manager...

I hire my own people too and specifically hire grads. I can’t believe how shortsighted some people are on here - the whole point of taking grads on a scheme is that you will give them the experience they need. It is very common to hire grads straight from uni in markets where working away from the home just isn’t done (eg India).

in my view there’s a massive difference between “Due to the recession and COVID I found it challenging to find employment however I expanded my skills and knowledge by [Volunteering/Online course/Work experience]” and “I had zero intention of even trying to find a job and have sat on my arse being supported by mummy and daddy for a year”

You're comparing apples and oranges though - your example associates the reason for not getting a job sooner (recession vs not needing to work) with the activities people undertake in their time out of the job market.

It's possible to not have a job by choice and also expand one's skills, knowledge and experience too!

And I think it's really unfair on OP's DN (who isn't here to defend herself, and neither is her father, who supports her decision) to assume she's going to be sat on her arse the whole time she's not working. Perhaps she is lazy and unmotivated and will sit on her arse and do zero, but OP hasn't said this and it seems a bit of a stretch to assume.

That sounds insane. How can they stand having her simply hanging around the house, writing the odd job application?

@LonginesPrime

Unfortunately this is currently exactly what she is doing. Going out late with friends and not getting up until noon.
And the conversation with DB about how much he hated this occurred shortly (prior to noon) before the one with her also there.
Their parenting is their choice however.