On holiday with friend and her kids; it's not going well

[GlummyMcGlummerson]

For context, my DD (8)was diagnosed a few weeks ago with a (mild) neurological condition. As part of this she has good days and bad days - good days she’s a normal 8yo with a normal routine, bad days she get dizzy spells, nausea, headaches (usually triggered by noise or bright lights) and sleeps a lot. She’ll have a 1-2 hour nap and then 14-15 hours at night. I am essentially waiting to see if she gets over it on her own before considering treatment, on advice of her doctor.

We (me, DD and 4yo DS) are on week-long UK holiday with my friend and her kids who are the same age as mine, a couple of hours from where we live. My friend’s 8yo - lets call her Emma - is a sensitive child, always has been, my friend has discussed it with me before, but I never gave it too much thought, my own DD can certainly be sensitive. However we are now on day 4 of the holiday, and living in close quarters with them I’ve realised she’s VERY over sensitive and it’s affecting everyone’s enjoyment of the holiday, and more importantly my DD’s condition. Emma is NT.

A few examples
⁃ they were colouring the other day and Emma went slightly over the lines in her picture. She burst into tears, blamed her mum because her mum was talking to me, and cried for half an hour, chucking her paper in the bin
⁃ - they put a “play” on for us the other night and Emma jumbled up for words. She got really upset, sat on the floor sobbing with her arms folded and refused to finish the play, which annoyed DD the others as they wanted to show us.
⁃ She stubbed her toe on the sofa yesterday and had a totally OTT reaction. She grabbed her foot, rolled around on the floor and screamed the most high pitched scream I’ve ever heard, relentlessly, for 20 minutes. I had to take DD out the room as it brought on a headache. If you overheard you’d think she’d have been stabbed. Her toe was fine, no break and no bruise.
⁃ We went for a picnic yesterday and when we packed up we told the kids that they all had to carry something back and we gave Emma the (lightweight) picnic blanket to carry. After a couple of minutes of walking back to the lodge, and heard a shriek. We turned around and she was about 10m away sitting on the ground crying hysterically. She said it was because the blanket was too heavy then we all left her behind. My friend had to carry for uphill back to the lodge and she cried all the way.

It’s lots of little things all the time. As to not drip feed, my friend’s DH has said before (in front of my friend) he thinks Emma’s sensitivity is exacerbated by her mum babying her. I (secretly) agree - she carries her a lot because she “gets tired legs” - such as round the supermarket, or from a restaurant to the car, or out of someone’s house. She also apologises to her a lot where I don’t think it’s necessary - she apologised for “making” her go over the lines when colouring. She also lays with her every night til she falls asleep - singing a lullaby or scratching her back, for about 1-2 hours. Her 4yo goes to sleep alone! The last 3 nights I’ve looked forward to having a bottle of wine with my friend, but she doesn’t usually come down til 10pm from putting Emma to bed. She’s attempted making her fall asleep alone before but had little success.

Anyway DD has been quite good about Emma’s tantrums considering she hasn’t been well, and every day has been a “bad day” for her. But last night when DD started to feel sleepy around 6pm, and Emma wanted her to play a game. DD said no she just wanted to watch a bit of TV, and Emma has a strop and told her mum that DD was a “bad friend”. At that point DD burst into tears and said to me, in front of Emma, that this is a rubbish holiday and Emma is ruining it 😬 well, merry hell broke loose and I took DD to bed to try and diffuse the situation.

Me and my friend had a bottle of wine and a bit of a grumble last night about it all, she said she has a daily struggle with Emma being so sensitive and her DH goes out the house for hours at a time to sit in a car park because he can’t stand the noise.

When I woke DD up today she said that she feels sick all the time and wants to go home . TBH I feel the same way, I’m sick of the shrieking and whilst I feel sorry for my friend it’s making it an unenjoyable holiday.

I figure I have 4 options:
1. Go home - say DD just isn’t well enough (DS is very chilled out and likely wouldn’t mind this but I’m loathe to cut his holiday short)
2. Tell my friend how Emma’s behaviour is affecting DD and ask her to speak to her or step in before it escalates
3. Do more as a family of three separately from the other family and maybe just meet them for dinner
4. Say nothing, they’re kids and will get over it
WWYD?

I think I’d go for option 3, you can still enjoy your holiday and the kids can play a bit later. Perhaps a break from everyone during the day will help the situation!

‘Emma’ is what used to be known as a spoilt brat.

This. People trying to claim that the child might have issues have completely failed to notice what the mother does. Rushes to her daughter everytime she even slightly cries, apologises for stupid stuff like making her go out of the lines when colouring, lying beside her to help her go to sleep. The mother has caused this, and I'd bet when the poor little darling stubbed her toe, mummy was right there fussing over her like normal.

The child does it because she gets attention from it. She knows this, because mummy jumps to attention everytime. If the mother actually started ignoring her and telling her to behave, the behaviour would go away quite quickly.

That being said, she isn't going to do it. She won't even listen to her own husband, why would her friends opinion count? Op, just go home and have a better three days away from the spoilt brat. She might improve with age once she starts getting teased for it, but it's a shame that it will come to that.

Emma doesn't sound neurotypical. It doesn't necessarily sound like a parenting thing if her other kid is developing fine.

What it does appear is that your daughters' needs are not compatible.

Your friend was fucking unreasonable to say your DD was not being a good friend though. That was really shit.

I would do 3 to start with and just day we need to split up for a day and see what happens tonight then you and your kids can go off and do something together. Then if that works try it again tomorrow

If it doesn’t then I would cut my losses and go home

I have a child that can be similar to Emma. That child has ASD. I compensate for the behaviour to make things run smoother for everyone too.

everyone's desperate to stick a label on "Emma" and diagnose her from what the OP has said.

But OP, who actually knows Emma, and her parents, well enough for them to be on holiday together, says the child is neurotypical.

Badly behaved, indulged, babied and spoiled children DO exist. We've all come across them.

Do you have board games or books with you? If not any charity shops you can get some from.

Come up with a plan for kids. After your time apart of in an Emma situation you will all exit and "give Emma space as she's obviously overwhelmed". No fanfare exit etc.

If it attention behaviour she'll get over it quicker and if it's actually anxiety or whatever she isn't made to feel worse by having an audience when she's out of control.

And the peace and quiet and lay downs will also help your dd rest.

It does sound as if Emma's mum is using methods that probably wouldn't be brilliant if it turns out Emma does have some chronic condition/SN/MH issue.

The constant apologising in particular sounds like a bad idea regardless of what is causing Emma's OTT reaction. Children with severe anxiety issues need reassurance that they can cope with everyday situations, not apologies for having been exposed to them.

But let's be fair to Emma's mum: since she has no idea what is actually going on- whether Emma behaves like she does in reaction to her parenting or because there is an underlying issue- she doesn't know what she should be doing either, there is nobody to advise her.

A paediatrician might well be a good idea.

My first instinct, having an Emma myself, is that Emma probably isn’t NT. And the parenting you criticise in your friend may we’ll be as a reaction to the difficult
behaviour from her daughter not the cause (even if it isn’t helping)
This ^
Her other child isn’t like this so it’s unlike she is the cause.

@SockYarn

everyone's desperate to stick a label on "Emma" and diagnose her from what the OP has said.

But OP, who actually knows Emma, and her parents, well enough for them to be on holiday together, says the child is neurotypical.

Badly behaved, indulged, babied and spoiled children DO exist. We've all come across them.

Op who has been told but didn’t realise how difficult the behaviour was until this holiday. So no it doesn’t sound like op knows enough herself to make a judgement if this is the first time she has seen the extent of the behaviour.

@katy1213

I'd have some long days out on your own. And if your friend asks why, it's because everyone's had a bellyful Violet Elizabeth Bott.

Exactly the character I was thinking of when I read the OP.

Sounds a nightmare for you and your poor DD. I would have a lovely family day today and say DD is too poorly and go home tomorrow. At least you've given it your best shot before it all goes totally to pot. And it will if you stay

But @AIMD - the OP still is in a better position to judge/assess than randomers on MN.

I would tell your friend that while you understand Emma's issues, they're having an impact on your DD's health. So you think going your separate ways during the day might be worth a try. Depending on her reaction to that and how day one of that goes would determine whether to continue along those lines or call it a day and go home.

I'd do 3but be prepared to go home if necessary.

I do feel for Emma. She either is not in fact NT, or is being parented v badly. Possibly both. She clearly has very little resilience ans will need to get this if she is going to function in society as she gets older.

But OP, who actually knows Emma, and her parents, well enough for them to be on holiday together, says the child is neurotypical.

You may well be right in this particular instance- but that is a ridiculous thing to say. There are countless instances of children being diagnosed after years of their own parents not suspecting anything.

And I have to say out of 4 friends of dc I thought I knew really well, the two I had down as possibly on the spectrum turned out to be neurotypical; it was the two I had never suspected that turned out to be on the spectrum. Masking is a thing.

Parental denial is also a thing. If Emma's mum thinks it's a good idea to apologise to a child who gets her drawing wrong, Emma's mum may have very little understanding of whether her daughter is NT or not.

And other parents may not be in a good position to judge, however often they see the child. Years after dd had been diagnosed (with a completely form of SN) parents who had known her since she was born were still adamant that she couldn't have SN, because they knew her.

As I said, Emma may well simply be spoilt. But the OP doesn't know that. And even if she is- doesn't she deserve some sympathy on that account? Every time she freaks out, her mum, instead of reassuring her, behaves as if something bad had actually happened. Must be terrifying for a child.

It sounds like both your daughter and your friends daughter have too complex needs to be compatible to be on holiday together.

I think before chatting to your friend you may need to see the holiday from their side equally. You describe both as being sensitive but yours is acceptablly so and your friends isn't. Your daughters needs may be explainable but still will have also had a negative affect on the others, sleeping for long hours, needing naps part way through the day and everyday being a bad day while on holiday etc will have been tricky for the other family to deal with.

I think your best option is to go home, have a bit of sympathy for the other family and save your friendship.

Get through this holiday by doing separate things then gently talk to your friend about Emma, if mum has any worries about her.

Emma's presentation is very similar to one of my autistic kids.
Slight mistakes are a complete disaster.
One of mine was carried well past 8 yrs old as they are hypermobile. I have carried a 14 year old this holiday at one point for some reason I can't remember. Not far. Can't manage far any more.

How do you know that Emma is NT? She sounds very similar to my son who has ASD/SPD. It is often missed in girls as they are better at masking the social issues, or called drama queens .

Perhaps raise the possibility with your friend? If she knows what she's dealing with she may be able to respond more appropriately. The 'tough love'/sleep training etc you would prefer your friend to do doesn't work with ASD and is distressing for all involved.

@BlingLoving

I'd do 3but be prepared to go home if necessary.

I do feel for Emma. She either is not in fact NT, or is being parented v badly. Possibly both. She clearly has very little resilience ans will need to get this if she is going to function in society as she gets older.

quite!

I have a friend who was very spoiled as a child and teenager (think sulking and throwing tantrums a lot including into teenagerhood) - we were friends with her because she was so nice otherwise but after a while we just sighed and said 'oh K is being spoiled again and laughed', then she had her DD in her 20's and became a single mum and had to rearrange her priorities and become less spoiled.

She confided in us all when she was grown before her DD was born she was so embarassed as to how much of a spoiled brat she'd been and we said don't worry.

@SockYarn

But *@AIMD* - the OP still is in a better position to judge/assess than randomers on MN.

Op might possibly be in a better position to judge. Maybe not though, because her focus is on the impact on her child and some people here recognise similarities between the description of this child and their own children or children they work with.

Clearly No one can make an accurate judgement based only on A MN post. There needs to be some outside input to help this child and properly assess her needs be there parenting or other.

What I can say for certain is that perceiving her as “spoiled” “attention seeking” “violet whoever” as if she isn’t a human with need ceetainly won’t help, regardless of the underlying cause.

@NameChangeAgain222

How do you know that Emma is NT? She sounds very similar to my son who has ASD/SPD. It is often missed in girls as they are better at masking the social issues, or called drama queens .

Perhaps raise the possibility with your friend? If she knows what she's dealing with she may be able to respond more appropriately. The 'tough love'/sleep training etc you would prefer your friend to do doesn't work with ASD and is distressing for all involved.

So, I am a bit of a drama queen as an adult - or was - I did this partly because I felt I wasn't being used to (thanks ex DH) etc.

And partly due to my being let to get away with having full blown rows. As soon as I was told, no, not right my mood changed and I had less drama.

Funnily enough I was a quiet well behaved kid and not terrible as a teenager in fact just normal! I did have anxiety, severe PMD which resulted in huge mood swings and now have underactive thyroid which also had mood swings. Definitely not ASD or SPD as tested by GP etc.

It sounds like both your daughter and your friends daughter have too complex needs to be compatible to be on holiday together.

I think before chatting to your friend you may need to see the holiday from their side equally. You describe both as being sensitive but yours is acceptablly so and your friends isn't. Your daughters needs may be explainable but still will have also had a negative affect on the others, sleeping for long hours, needing naps part way through the day and everyday being a bad day while on holiday etc will have been tricky for the other family to deal with.

I think your best option is to go home, have a bit of sympathy for the other family and save your friendship.

I think this is very reasonable -- it did strike me, when reading the OP, that her daughter, through no fault of her own, is probably not an unproblematic fellow-holidaymaker either, from the other family's POV, and it's a bit unfair to cast her as the victim and 'Emma' as the spoilt villain of the piece, as I agree she doesn't sound NT.

My friends son behaves like this and is NT. However he has had a very rocky upbringing with emotional abuse and insecurity among other things. Most of our friendship group can't stand him, he's called spoilt, rude, obnoxious, horrible child ( not to his or his parents faces obviously). I however believe it's just insecurity and his behaviour would improve if he was was helped with his confidence and self esteem.

God, what a wet lettuce! She’s in for a rotten life if she can’t grow a bit of backbone.

I would try and see less of them if you can and Do your own thing in the day and just have dinner with them. If that isn’t working after a couple of days then cut your losses and go home - you could make up for it with fun day trips for your kids at home.